The Deity of Christ: A Defining Question to the Grace Evangelical Society
The defining question below is directed to Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, Jeremy Myers, Antonio da Rosa and any advocate of the position on the Gospel coming from the Grace Evangelical Society.
In the thread under the blog entry, How Much Information Is Really Needed, Antonio posted this statement,
“When you believe in the name of Jesus, you believe on One who is God, who has died and rose again, who was born of a virgin, who did walk on water, who ascended into heaven bodily, etc. EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT AWARE, UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE THESE THINGS.”Antonio your interpretation of the Gospel is identical with Hodges, Wilkin, & Myers. This question is, therefore, directed to each of you men.
Can a lost man be born again while
consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ
if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ
if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
LM
Greg Schliesmann's Paradigm #2 will be posted early next week.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis morning I deleted a reckless comment posted by Antonio da Rosa in this thread. If I were to allow it, his comment would be better placed in the thread under: Tom Stegall's OPEN LETTER to the Free Grace Community.
ReplyDeleteIt appears obvious Antonio is not going to address the question I posted to him (and the GES) in this article.
Instead he does something that typically gets him banned from sites in the blogosphere.
I would encourage Antonio to refrain from trying to turn what is an important doctrinal discussion into a personality clash.
If Antonio keeps up his reckless behavior I will have to turn on Comments Moderation.
Now Antonio, you have seen this question by virtue of your posting a comment here; will you answer this question:
Can a lost man be born again while consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
LM
Lou,
ReplyDeleteIf a man were to believe that Jesus was the Christ and had given him eternal life by faith alone - yet he did not at all know or understand Jesus' death for sins and His resurrection - is his faith invalid so that he remains unsaved?
Antonio:
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to interact on the question, I would encourage you to demonstrate a measure of integrity and answer the question with an answer instead of this kind of redirecting, evasive, double-speak.
LM
To All:
ReplyDeleteI posted the follwing at Antonio's site under his article, Public Debate Declined.
I want to keep a record of it, which is why I have posted here in this thread.
Antonio:
I am hopeful that a few years from now you will look back on statements, like those that appear in your article here, and feel some sense of regret over the elitist, arrogant attitude about you.
I don't say that to offend you. It is something I believe you need to hear and weigh.
Lord willing, you will mature to a point where you can disagree sharply, yet remain charitable.
In debates such as this, emotions can run high; feelings get hurt and egos bruised. You need to disconnect the emotions if you are ever going to be taken seriously and not offend many with your comments. Check your ego at the door; I have to do it daily.
I don't know who your pastor is or if he read what you wrote to Pastor Rokser and have now publicly disclosed. You have publicly scolded and rebuked a pastor. The Bible says, “The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching,” (1 Tim. 5:17).
Maybe your pastor, Wilkin or Hodges have some influence with you, but I would hope they might see the value in counseling you to memorize and live by the principles in these passages.
“Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man”, (Col. 4:6)
“Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled,” (Titus 2:6).
LM
To All:
ReplyDeleteAt five different blog sites, including Antonio's FGT site, I have posted the Deity of Christ question.
The men in the GES, to whom the question is directed, know it is waiting for their attention. Only Antonio offered a non-answer above. Why do these men hesitate to answer this question which is foundational to our faith?
Antonio has been making quite a fuss over Pastors Stegall & Rokser declining to meet Bob Wilkin in public debate and/or open forum. In my opinion Antonio and the GES members who hold to the “Crossless” gospel have an even bigger issue. Why won’t they address whether or not a lost man can be saved while consciously denying the Deity of Christ?
I intend to keep this question alive and encourage Zane Hodges as well as the GES staff to address it.
I am hopeful their “Crossless” theology has not taken them to such an extreme that they find salvation possible even while consciously rejecting Christ's deity.
LM
To All:
ReplyDeleteA man, who goes by Danny and would identify himself with the GES and the "Crossless" interpretation of the Gospel, answered my question on the Deity of Christ, but at another site.
To have a discussion on his answer, if he chooses to, I told him I would move the discussion and his comment here. He originally replied to my question at da Rosa’s site, but that blog is not a place where one can interact on this question without Antonio redirecting the issue.
Danny asked that I quote his answer in its entirety.
Following is Danny’s answer to the question:
Can a lost man be born again while consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
”Lou, I'll answer the question. Since you're thinking of a hypothetical man who is not simply ignorant of the Deity of Christ, but rather consciously denying it, I would say that he will probably reject the idea that Jesus gives eternal life as well. But I'm not dogmatic about this. If this person who is consciously denying the Deity of Christ is actually believing Jesus' promise of eternal life, he is saved, but again, this must be a rare occurrence, if it even occurs at all.
And even if I consider such a person saved, if they persist in denying His Deity, then I would break fellowship with them. I'm sure Antonio and Zane would not fellowship with such people either. As you know, Antonio and Zane both herald the Cross. This whole issue is over a hypothetical situation. But Antonio is right that the bottom line is believing Jesus' promise of eternal life. We present the Cross to make it clear how Jesus can offer eternal security. Lou, if you quote any of these statements of mine, please quote them in their entirety.”
(bold added)
Thanks for posting it in its entirety Lou :)
ReplyDeleteMost people who outright deny Jesus' Diety usually deny His offer of eternal life as well. But if there have been people who believed they are eternally secure through Jesus, apart from good works, while consciously denying His Diety, I would of course say that they are saved, but if they persist in their view, they should be cut off from fellowship. And again, such situations rarely, if ever, occur.
Now, most people will not believe in Jesus for eternal life if they don't understand the Finished Work. So the normal way of leading people to Christ is to make it clear that Jesus freely gives irrevocable eternal life, and show them how Jesus can make this offer by expounding on His full payment for our sins on the Cross and the Resurrection. And let's not forget that even Zane admits this in his paper when he writes in How to Lead People to Christ Part 1:
(begin quote) But more often than not, we have difficulty leading them to Christ, unless we lead them through the full gospel message. The gospel message is normally the avenue through which men and women come to understand why they can trust completely in the Savior. To be sure, trust in Christ can occur without a knowledge of the cross, but more often than not it doesn’t. The message of the cross clarifies God’s way of salvation.
On a very practical level, when I am dealing with an unsaved person, I find that if I simply tell him he only needs to believe in Christ, this usually doesn’t make sense to him. Why should it be so easy? Why are not works required? To the unregenerate American mind, it doesn’t sound reasonable.
So I find it not only useful, but indeed essential, to explain that the Lord Jesus Christ bought our way to heaven by paying for all our sins. In recent years I have liked to emphasize that He paid for all the sins we would ever commit from the day of our birth to the day of our death. This serves to stress the completeness of the payment He made. It is usually only in the light of so perfect a payment that people can come to see the reasonableness of a salvation that is absolutely free.
I say to people, “Jesus paid it all” and there is nothing left for you to do or to pay. All you have to do is believe in Him for the free gift of everlasting life (end quote).
Danny:
ReplyDeleteI am going to be back tomorrow, but for now, consider these words from Scripture,
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins,” (John 8:24).
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name,” (John 20:31).
LM
Hi Lou. Those two are actually my favorite passages :) When we compare John 11:25-27 with John 20:31, we see that believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God entails believing that we are eternally secure (will never die) through Jesus. So I agree that John is connecting Jesus' Divinity with His free offer of eternal life in 20:31. This is the normal pattern. John wants the person to see that because of Who He is (the Son of God), He freely offers eternal life. People who deny His Deity typically reject the idea that eternal life is free. However, a person who believes they are eternally secure through Jesus while denying His Diety is a rare case - I still say they're saved - but this rarely, if ever, occurs. And again, I would break fellowship with people who persistently deny His Divinity/Death/Resurrection. Zane and Antonio would break fellowship with such people as well.
ReplyDeleteWhen I present the Gospel, I use John 20:31 and make it clear that Jesus is the Son of God, whose Death/Resurrection gives him the authority to freely give eternal life to those who believe in Him for eternal life.
There's a difference between preaching His Death and Resurrection and verbally telling people they must believe it to be saved. Your job is to paint a complete portrait of Christ - His Divinity, His Death, His Resurrection - and to make it clear that because of who He is (the Son of God) and what He's done (died for our sins and rose from the dead), He freely gives eternal life to those who believe His promise of eternal life. Let the Spirit do the rest. Preach Jesus Crucified and Rise, zero in on His promise of eternal life. Let the Spririt work.
Danny/All:
ReplyDeleteThe Bible must be our FINAL AUTHORITY for faith and practice. The Inspired Word of God must be the rule and guide for how we arrive at our theology.
I trust every Bible-believing Christian holds to this view.
With that established, I want to briefly look at what the Bible says about the deity of Christ in regard to my question and especially your answer in regard to the reception of eternal life, salvation.
I am going to post a few verses from the the Apostle John’s first epistle. Let these stand on their own merit. Let the Bible says what is says without the trappings of logic or personally held beliefs.
The Son of God is co-equal with the father. Colossians 2:9 & Hebrews 1:8 makes this very clear.
“In Him dwelt all the fullness of the God head bodily,” (Colossians 2:9).
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever,” (Hebrews 1:8).
The Deity of Christ is based on the clear teaching of Scripture.
That being established, we then turn to what the Bible says about denying His deity.
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also,” (1 John 2:22-23).
In light of what the Bible says about the deity of Christ, and the consequences of denying this truth; is there any biblical justification for teaching a lost man can be born again while consciously denying the deity of Christ if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
LM
Hi Lou. Let me say again that believing you are eternally secure through Jesus while denying His deity is NOT a normal occurence. Most people who reject the Deity, reject the idea of free eternal life. 1 John 2:22-23 is about denying Jesus as the Christ. A person who denies the Deity but believes they are eternally secure through Jesus has affirmed that Jesus is the Christ - the one who freely provides them with eternal life (1 John 5:1). To the Samaritans, Jesus was the Christ, the Savior of the world. The term Christ is common to John 4:42, 11:25m and 11:27.
ReplyDeleteI meant John 4:42, 11:25-27 and 20:31. Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God entails believing that you are eternally secure through Him (John 11:25-27). A person who believes that they are eternally secure through Jesus has affirmed that Jesus is the Christ, the common denominator to John 4:42, 11:25-27/20:31 and 1 John 5:1. So denying the Deity is a special case that doesn't happen often, if at all.
ReplyDeleteNow Lou, I would also say that 1 John 2:22-23 includes saved antichrists and unsaved antichrists. There are people who at one time believed that Jesus is the Son of God who freely gave them eternal life, before they apostasized from the faith (Hebrews 6:4-6, etc). Since a person who believes in Jesus for eternal security is saved, if they fall away from the faith and deny that Jesus is the Son of God, they are saved antichrists. They used to believe in Jesus as well as all the orthodox truths about Him. Now they deny His divinity, eternal security, etc. But because they once believed in Him for eternal security, they are saved. But they are now saved antichrists. They will lose rewards big time.
Lou, now let me ask you a question. What if a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God, but are either unaware or flat-out deny that He is co-equal with the Father? John 20:31 doesn't make it clear that Jesus is co-equal with the Father. Does that mean John 20:31 is insufficient?
ReplyDeleteExactly how many facets of Jesus' Divinity must a person understand before they can savingly believe that they are eternally secure through Him?
Hi Lou. I don't know why Antonio and Jeremy won't answer your question directly. I can only speak for myself. Yes, I am a young man, but I've done alot of thinking over the years about these things. And again, Antonio, Zane, Jeremy, and I always present the Cross of Christ and His Resurrection. This whole fight is over a hypothetical situation. And again, people who deny the Deity of Christ usually deny the Gospel and the offer of eternal life as well. I would find it very unusual if someone actually told me that they reject everything I say about Jesus with the exception of the free gift of eternal life.
ReplyDeleteMy comments on 1 John 2:22-23 are spot on. Luke 8:12-13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and many other passages are very clear that saved people can fall away from the faith. This means they no longer believe the promise of eternal security through Jesus. Some become Arminians, some become Calvinists, some of them become atheists (which means they no longer believe that Jesus even exists, let alone being God). But because they once believed the Gospel, and most likely all the orthodox doctrines about Jesus, they are saved. If they become atheists or just change their mind later and believe that Jesus isn't God, they still have eternal life since they once believed in Jesus for eternal life. This means that 1 John 2:22-23 addresses both saved and unsaved antichrists.
Also Lou, your comments are making it clear to me that even John 20:31 isn't enough. Since John 20:31 doesn't explicitly mention that Jesus is co-equal with the Father, I would imagine that you would say that an unbeliever who reads that verse and believes it can't be saved until someone makes it clear to him that Jesus is co-equal with the Father. And let's not forget that a person must understand eternal security to be saved. Eternal life is eternal security. Believing in Jesus for a probationary life, via Arminianism, cannot bring life. Arminians and Catholics believe that Jesus died and rose again, but they deny eternal security. Therefore, they don't have eternal life. Eternal security is written all over the Cross. Believing that Jesus died for you while denying eternal security means that a person doesn't understand the purpose of Jesus' Death.
Danny:
ReplyDeleteIt is after midnight here. I am going to be brief, but more tomorrow.
There is so much, that is so wrong in your three posts above that I cannot devote time to each item.
I am going to limit myself to the nature of the question I asked about the deity of Jesus and your reply. My primary interest and concern with the “Crossless” gospel has to do with the conversion experience.
Post conversion issues are important, especially the strange teaching coming from Hodges. For example, in The Epistles of John (pages 111-112) Hodges teaches that the antichrists mentioned in 1 John 2:18-19, 22-23 could very well be saved people!
I am only guessing you are a young man. Young, middle-aged or old, however, you have been swallowed up in some of the most unsound, out-of-balance doctrine I have ever encountered in fundamental or evangelical circles. The teaching of Hodges on 1 John 2 above, which you articulated earlier, is one of those egregious errors.
I highly recommend my guests read The Teachings of Zane Hodges by Brother George Zeller. More of the above from Hodges is exposed and dealt with by Zeller
So, if I may, I want to stay on the subject of this article and thread. That is what I will return to on Friday
LM
PS: I do appreciate your having the backbone and character to give a straight-up answer to the question here. Why do you think Antonio and Jeremy Myers are dodging it?
NOTE, I was revising my previous comment, and Danny posted a reply before my revison took. So, I have copied his post and placed here so that the flow of thought is not muddled.
ReplyDeleteDanny said…
Hi Lou. I don't know why Antonio and Jeremy won't answer your question directly. I can only speak for myself. Yes, I am a young man, but I've done alot of thinking over the years about these things. And again, Antonio, Zane, Jeremy, and I always present the Cross of Christ and His Resurrection. This whole fight is over a hypothetical situation. And again, people who deny the Deity of Christ usually deny the Gospel and the offer of eternal life as well. I would find it very unusual if someone actually told me that they reject everything I say about Jesus with the exception of the free gift of eternal life.
My comments on 1 John 2:22-23 are spot on. Luke 8:12-13, Hebrews 6:4-6, and many other passages are very clear that saved people can fall away from the faith. This means they no longer believe the promise of eternal security through Jesus. Some become Arminians, some become Calvinists, some of them become atheists (which means they no longer believe that Jesus even exists, let alone being God). But because they once believed the Gospel, and most likely all the orthodox doctrines about Jesus, they are saved. If they become atheists or just change their mind later and believe that Jesus isn't God, they still have eternal life since they once believed in Jesus for eternal life. This means that 1 John 2:22-23 addresses both saved and unsaved antichrists.
Also Lou, your comments are making it clear to me that even John 20:31 isn't enough. Since John 20:31 doesn't explicitly mention that Jesus is co-equal with the Father, I would imagine that you would say that an unbeliever who reads that verse and believes it can't be saved until someone makes it clear to him that Jesus is co-equal with the Father. And let's not forget that a person must understand eternal security to be saved. Eternal life is eternal security. Believing in Jesus for a probationary life, via Arminianism, cannot bring life. Arminians and Catholics believe that Jesus died and rose again, but they deny eternal security. Therefore, they don't have eternal life. Eternal security is written all over the Cross. Believing that Jesus died for you while denying eternal security means that a person doesn't understand the purpose of Jesus' Death.
I've read Zeller's article. It's a terrible article.
ReplyDeleteHow does quoting Hodges from his own books make a "terrible article?"
ReplyDeleteZeller documents a stark, revealing look at the egregious errors coming from the pen and mind of Zane Hodges.
LM
Danny:
ReplyDeleteYou asked me, "Exactly how many facets of Jesus' Divinity must a person understand before they can savingly believe that they are eternally secure through Him?"
Your comments miss the crux of the debate I am focusing in on. My greatest concern is just how much major doctrine a lost man can consciously reject and deny, but still, according to “Crossless” advocates, be born again.
My concern and intent of the deity question is ask the GES men if they believe a lost man can consciously deny the deity of our blessed Lord, and still be born again.
The "Crossless" gospel allows for the teaching that any doctrine, including the deity of Christ, can be rejected and denied, but still that lost man can be born again by believing in Jesus for eternal life.
That is why I formulated the question the way I did. You are one of only two who gave a genuine, non-evasive answer, which was, "Yes."
LM
Hi Lou. Zeller's article doesn't really interact with any of Zane's works. He refers readers to read Zane's books. He gives biting commentaries, rather than dealing with Zane's exegesis. And he's way off to charge Zane with considering everyone a believer who profess to believe. A person must specifically profess that they have believed that they are eternally secure through Jesus, and not by good works, in order for Zane to consider them saved. Therefore, Zeller's article is terrible.
ReplyDeleteI have also read Zeller's article on weeping and gnashing of teeth. He does interact more with Zane and Bob's views on this one, and gives his own exposition. Yet he fails to cite Matthew 8:10. A fatal error, considering that the issue in Matthew 8:10 is GREAT faith, not necessaril faith vs. no faith. It's too easy to say that Matthew 8:10-12 contains hyperbole and that therefore Jesus is comparing a great faith Gentile to non-faith Jews. What if there isn't a hyperbole here Lou? What if the banquet is not representative of the entire Kingdom? What if the requirement for the banquet is actually great faith, and not simply faith? What if Jesus isn't exaggerating by comparing great faith to no faith. What if Jesus is being literal when he says he has not found great faith in Israel, meaning, if it is indeed literal, that he had found faith in Israel, just not great faith? But that's not the issue we're here to discuss.
I take that you don't see Jesus' co-equality with the Father as a major doctrine, and therefore, you take the position that a person doesn't have to be aware of the co-equality to be saved. Am I correct or not? I hope I'm not coming across as rude. I'm not trying to be :)
Danny:
ReplyDeleteI know written communication can seem rough and harsh at times. What I am about to tell you is emphatic, but not meant to be harsh.
You wrote, “I take that you don't see Jesus' co-equality with the Father as a major doctrine...”
Please do not reference, attribute or link the subject of your comment above to me or any believer unless you have it irrefutably documented from the one you suggest holds a position like that.
You did not charge me with heresy, but suggesting I may view the deity of Christ as something less than a MAJOR doctrine feels like the first cousin of heresy to me.
Part of my deity question to Jeremy included references to Col. 2:9 & Heb 1:8.
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”
The deity of Christ, which is His being 100% equal to the Father, is a MAJOR doctrine. For that very reason, I chose it as the subject of my question to the “Crossless” advocates. May I remind you that Jeremy Myers has refused to answer this question on what is a MAJOR doctrine. He has been evasive and disingenuous, but I am going to keep it before him.
Again, I am not trying to be harsh, but you need to be careful about what you suggest or attribute to another man unless you have it down pat.
LM
Hi Lou. That's why I asked you if I was correct or not, because I couldn't tell from your previous comment and non-answer to my question about the necessity of belief in the co-equality of the Father and Son. I wasn't trying to nail you on anything. That's why I asked if I was correct or not.
ReplyDeleteBut what if someone did believe Jesus was the Divine Son of God, understood his Death/Resurrection, believing in Him for eternal life, but didn't grasp the idea of the Son of God being equal with God the Father?
Danny:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “But what if someone did believe Jesus was the Divine Son of God, understood his Death/Resurrection, believing in Him for eternal life, but didn't grasp the idea of the Son of God being equal with God the Father?”
Hebrews 1:8 & Col. 2:9 remove any doubt about whether or not the Father and the Son are the equal, one in the same! I trust we are clear on that; right?
Again, I need to advise that your note above is not the exact crux of my question and concern.
In lockstep the "Crossless" gospel advocates believe a lost man can be saved apart from any knowledge, or belief in any thing about Jesus (His deity, cross work, resurrection) Who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation.
So, I am asking the men who hold to Hodges' position on the Gospel: Do you believe a lost man, who consciously denies the deity of Christ, can be born again if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
It s just that simple. You are one of a few who have given a straight answer to that question. Your answer was, "Yes."
Bob Wilkin is mulling over my question and I am looking forward to what I hope will be an answer given in unambiguous, unvarnished terms.
The mantra coming from some "Crossless" advocates is, "Well, if they believe Him for eternal life, they can't be denying His deity." That is a dodge!
LM
"Can a lost man be born again while consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?"
ReplyDeleteYes.
MrGiggs:
ReplyDeleteThank you for a clear, unambiguous answer. I believe a "Yes" answer indicates a serious doctrinal error, but your were transparent. I cannot say the same for Jeremy Myers or Antonio da Rosa since they are dodging this vital question.
May I ask if you would ID yourself as in agreement with the Hodges/GES interpretation of the Gospel?
Even if you side with them on the “Crossless” interpretation of the gospel I would hope that you find it disturbing they cannot reply to the simple question you just answered.
LM
Your welcome.
ReplyDeleteI don't know anything about why others you mentioned have not answered this question.
what is their interpretation and I'll tell you if I agree with it? :)
Ryan
p.s. Can a lost man be born again if he believes in Jesus for eternal life but wasn't told of Jesus' deity?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteFoolish questions that are intended to disrupt doctrinal discussions from "Anonymous" posters will be deleted.
ReplyDeleteImmaturity, especially coming from those who will hide their identity, is not going to be tolerated.
LM
Hello Ryan:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "a) I don't know anything about why others you mentioned have not answered this question. b) What is their interpretation and I'll tell you if I agree with it?"
1) I have a very good idea why Jeremy Myers (who is on the GES staff) will not answer, but it is speculation at best. The issue is that they are dodging a question on the deity of Christ and that ought to alarm any Bible-believing Christian.
2) Their interpretation of the Gospel is that a lost man can born again by believing in the name Jesus for eternal life. The lost man does not need to know or believe that he is a sinner, that Jesus died and rose from the dead for him, done not need not to know or believe Jesus is deity.
The clear meaning of passages such as 1 Cor. 15:3-4 and Romans 10:9-10 are dismissed and/or twisted out of shape to nullify the importance of knowing or believing anything about Jesus, the Son of God, his death, burial and resurrection.
The “Crossless” gospel is a message that is emptied of any truth beyond knowing some one named Jesus, whoever he may be to the sinner, gives eternal life to any one who believes he can have it from said Jesus.
That lost man can be a Mormon who is an ant-Christ by virtue of his rejection of Christ’s deity. The “Crossless” advocate, however, is undeterred. He thinks that Mormon can be born again while trampling the deity of our blessed Lord.
For some analysis of the "Crossless" gospel, See A Response to Hodges: How to Lead a Person to Christ, Parts 1 & 2.
As for your "yes," answer. I would encourage you to read the passages below. Then think, in light of the Scriptures: Can a lost man knowingly reject Christ's deity and actually receive the gift of eternal life and be counted as a genuinely born again believer?
LM
“I and My Father are one,” (John 10:30).
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins,” (John 8:24). {cf. Ephesians 2:1}
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also,” ( 1 John 2:22-23).
This morning Jeremy Myers at the GES blog wrote,
ReplyDelete“The truth is, we all have better things to do than respond to every one of your baseless accusations, let alone in the timeframe that you demand.
Anybody who knows the least little bit about what I and others believe, knows that we firmly hold to the deity of Jesus, and that we teach that He must be God in order to offer eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. For you to imply otherwise is not only laughable, but is the most basic of logical fallacies.”
I replied at the GES blog as follows in the next post…
Jeremy:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “Anybody who knows the least little bit about what I and others believe, knows that we firmly hold to the deity of Jesus, and that we teach that He must be God in order to offer eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. For you to imply otherwise is not only laughable, but is the most basic of logical fallacies. .”
You have misrepresented the basis and subject of my question on Christ’s deity. I never, and you know I never, suggested or implied whether or not you or any “Crossless” gospel advocate personally rejects the deity of Christ.
If I have called into question your belief in Christ’s deity, produce the evidence. You can’t because I never did.
You and anyone who has read my question can readily see that it has to do with what a lost person believes about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. More specifically, and you know it, the question has to do with the lost man consciously rejecting the deity of Christ.
You are going to dodge the question, which has been clear since the first time you acknowledged the question. Dodge the question, but at least be accurate in identifying the exact subject you are not going to answer.
If you have any sense of making right a misrepresentation you will do so here in regard to your disingenuous statement above.
LM
Can a lost man be born again, while consciously denying the deity of Christ, if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?
Hi LM,
ReplyDeleteIf what you said is true about their interpretation of the Gospel then no, I don't agree with that. I believe it is the biblical Son of God, Jesus Christ, who provides eternal life.
For the record, I do believe in the deity of Jesus.
I see the passages. My answer is still yes, but I'll have a further look tonight when I have more than 2 mins at the computer :)
Ryan
Thanks Ryan:
ReplyDeleteHow I described their position is exactly correct.
They consider introducing or asking the sinner to believe anything more than the name Jesus as the Giver of eternal life is adding "excess baggage" to the Gospel. That is from Hodges.
I'll look for you later.
Lou
Hi Lou. After doing some more thinking, I've changed my mind. Now I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward your view that rejecting the Diety of Christ can't lead to salvation. I already stated that I think it's unlikely that anyone who consciously rejects Christ's diety would come to faith in Him for eternal life. Like I said before, if they reject his Diety they will probably reject the idea that eternal life is free. But as you know, I said they would still be saved, though it's a rare occurrence. My answwr is that I'm no longer sure, but leaning toward your view. I can't say yes with absolute certainty. I can't say no with absolute certainity.
ReplyDeleteDanny:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate any man who will examine his beliefs in light Scripture.
These verses are very clear and direct.
“I and My Father are one,” (John 10:30).
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins,” (John 8:24). {cf. Ephesians 2:1}
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also,” ( 1 John 2:22-23).
The "Crossless" advocates reinterpret and twist these to negate what they very plainly teach.
Keep mediating on what Jesus says about Himself and those who deny His deity.
Lou
Hi Lou. You know that I already believed that most people who deny Jesus' diety likewise reject salvation by grace through faith. But now you know that I changed my mind and can't say for sure that a person can be saved by believing the promise, while denying His diety. Although I can't be sure of their salvation status, one thing is clear - we are not to fellowship with such people, as I've already stated.
ReplyDeleteHebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 are clear that believers can trample the Son of God underfoot, and count the blood of the covenant by which they were *sanctified* a common thing (Hebrews 10:29). Calvinists like to argue that the sanctification of Hebrews 10:29 is a non-saving sanctifcation of unbelievers who associate with believers, comparing it to the sanctification of unbelieving spouses by believing spouses in 1 Corinthians 7. It's eisegesis to take 1 Cor 7 and read it into Hebrews 10:29. The context of Hebrews 10:29 shows that it is referring to the permanent sanctification of believers (10:10-14). Jesus' sacrifice has forever perfected those that are sanctified (10:10-14). However, some of those saved Jews in chapter 10 were considering returning to Judaism to escape persecution, and thus considering Jesus' blood, by which they were sanctified, a common thing. They will face a punishment worse than death (10:29), but they are eternally saved (10:10-14).
Some people who fall away from the faith go on to deny Jesus' deity. But having once affirmed that Jesus is the Son of God who freely gave them eternal life through His Death/Resurrection, they are saved. People who fall into this category are saved antichrists. John is primarily targeting unbelievers in 1 John 2:22-23, but former believers who now deny the Deity, justification by faith, and other doctrine are saved antichrists.
Let me add this though. It's not clear if the Hebrews 10:26-31 people stopped believing in Jesus or the orthodox truths about Him. At most, I can only say that they stopped gathering with other believers and publicly denied Jesus to avoid persecution, while possibly still believing that He is the Son of God and that His sacrifice was still sufficient. Still, whether or not they still believed, they were denying Him and His sacrifice publicly, and forsaking the assembly of believers.
ReplyDeleteStill, we know from other Scripture that Christians can indeed stop believing in Jesus and all the orthodox truths about Him. In Luke 8:12, the result of believing is being saved. The unbelievers in that verse would have been saved if they had believed. But then in Luke 8:13 we read about those who believe for awhile, and fall away from the faith when temptation arrives. Already there is a difference between the unbelievers of 8:12 and the temporary believers of 8:13. Calvinists are once again guilty of eisegesis for reading the idea of "spurious" faith into the passage. The Luke 8:13 people are indeed saved, as it only takes one moment of faith in Jesus specifically for permanent eternal life to be saved. They fall away from the faith, but they are saved, for the result of believing the right message is to be saved. But even in Luke 8:13, there are different types of saved people. Some go on to deny Jesus' Divinity and Finished Work while still believing God exists, some become atheists, and some become flat-out works-salvationists, etc.
Hi Everyone,
ReplyDeleteLM: We just bought a new house and I've been installing hardwood floors the last few days! I'm just about done besides a few touch-ups so hopefully I can get more involved here. I love exploring and discussing scripture :)
I'm currently looking at the question and passages you posted.
While I'm doing so could you elaborate on the two key terms listed below?
"consciously" and "deity"
Thanks,
Ryan
Hi Lou,
ReplyDeleteOk, just looked at the passages and context of the verses you provided. Certainly these are good evidence showing the Deity of Christ, however, they might not prove a "no" answer to "the question" in discussion.
When I saw "the question" I tried to also see things in the perspective of a "lost man" or "baby believer" or anyone with no or very little knowledge/understanding of the bible. There is much for them to swallow when hearing the gospel, one being the deity of Jesus.
The answer to me depends on the meaning of "deity of Christ" and what about that they are denying. If the question means a person must believe his deity in the sense that Jesus IS God, then my answer is still "yes" it is possible to not believe Jesus IS God, but still be born again.
However, if the meaning of "the question" implies that one denies his deity in the sense that Jesus is FROM God, THE one and only Son FROM the one and only God, that we find in the bible, then my answer is "no" they cannot be born again while in this denial.
When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven.
Let me know what you think, I look forward to your response! :)
Ryan
Ryan and Lou I hope you don’t mind me piping in here…,
ReplyDelete“When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven.”
Let me know what you think, I look forward to your response! :)
I’ll buy the above. But God considers believing that Jesus is the Son of God as the same thing as believing that his is God.
You are not likely Jewish, (and for sure not a first century Jew) therefore you may not be aware that when a Jew in that day and age called someone the son of ____ they were implying you have the very essence and nature of the person or thing you put in the blank. We still do that in this day and age but mainly with derogative statements. I won’t go any further in explaining this. :) Needless to say, Jesus constantly identified himself with humanity and with deity by the statements of “Son of Man” and “Son of God”.
Why this explanation? When Jesus is referred to as the Son of God it means more than we (modern mankind) hastily assign to it. This is why the question of deity must be developed in evangelism and the Christ we preach must be God in the ear of the evangelized.
The lost must know that this man “Christ” (of 1 Cor 15:3) is God. How much of His deity they must know is not easily defined. Probably not much. Just like they don’t have to have a degree in theology to know the basics of what it means that he died for them for their sins.
But, the word Christ, was synonymous with Son of God, which was synonymous with deity (John 4:25-26 & Matthew 26:63-68).
Obviously, the Holy Spirit is in this world, as we speak, trying to convince the lost of the fact of Christ deity, as shown in John 16:10 and Romans 10:9. This is, of course, because if Christ were a mere man what could He do of you that the guy next door couldn’t do? Making Christ deity known is precisely what John sought to do, so eloquently, through all his writings, both the epistles and his gospel John 1:1-5; 1 John 1:1-2; 2 John 7-11. This is specifically why the crossless deityless gospel is so egregious.
One of the quick objections from the crossless pundits is always; “well do they have to know the virgin birth or the truth of the trinity in order for Christ to be constituted God in their thinking”. Absolutely not! Yet, He must be God in some form in their thinking as found in the irreducible gospel minimum of “Christ died for our sins”. We who have studied these truths for a lifetime have not plumbed the depths of these truths. But, if they are consciously denying these truths they have scripture to deal with. John 8:24 so concisely articulates the necessity of believing He is God.
Ryan, I must admit from some of your posting above and the ones on the GES site I would not have believed that you would have so clearly and heartwarmingly said such a clear gospel:
“When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven.”
Bret
Hi Bret:
ReplyDeleteReal blessing to read this latest post from you.
I'll try to have some thoughts for you tomorrow.
Lou
You wrote, "But, the word Christ, was synonymous with Son of God, which was synonymous with deity (John 4:25-26 & Matthew 26:63-68)."
ReplyDeleteThe Bible is clear on this, but the "Crossless/Deityless" advocates simply dismiss these truths in preference what Zane Hodges has determined to be truth.
The "Checklist" gimmick is a ruse and distraction from their assault on the titles of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Their doctrine has never been so fully exposed, and they do NOT want to defend this, especially the deity of Christ issues.
I am confident that in the Shea/Wilkin debate this trampling of the Lord's titles will be addressed and thoroughly refuted.
Lou
Ryan:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven."
I agree with Bret on your statement when he (Bret) wrote, "...you...have so clearly and heartwarmingly said such a clear gospel."
Lou
I am not sure if GES flatly denies the Deity of Christ and frankly I don't know whether it's even possible to believe in Christ as a mere human (for no human is perfect).
ReplyDeleteHowever, on the other hand, what exactly one must believe about Jesus Christ? What if someone is oneness Pentacostal, believing that Jesus is the Father (Modalism), is this OK?
There are people in churches who believe Jesus is not eternal (they ask: "How can He be eternal if He was born about 2000 years ago?". Are such people saved?
I remember trusting in Christ at a very young age. I don't exactly recall what my theology about Christ was. I doubt I could resite the Nicene Creed with full references from the Bible at that time (about 9 or 10 years old).
Was I saved then?
Vlad:
ReplyDeleteThanks for stopping by.
You wrote, “I am not sure if GES flatly denies the Deity of Christ…”
The GES men personally believe in the deity of Christ. The problem is that they insist the unsaved do not have to know, understand or believe in His deity, but can still be born again. There is more.
The GES also insists that a lost man can cling to the heretical beliefs that He is NOT deity, openly reject His deity and still be born again.
That is the crux of the controversy over the deity of Christ.
Then, there is the GES reductionist assaults on the cross and resurrection of Christ.
LM