tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post4678096028685166215..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: The Deity of Christ: A Defining Question to the Grace Evangelical SocietyLou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-67598699633903665522008-10-10T21:34:00.000-05:002008-10-10T21:34:00.000-05:00Vlad:Thanks for stopping by.You wrote, “I am not s...Vlad:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by.<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “I am not sure if GES flatly denies the Deity of Christ…”<BR/><BR/>The GES men personally believe in the deity of Christ. The problem is that they insist the unsaved do not have to know, understand or believe in His deity, but can still be born again. There is more. <BR/><BR/>The GES also insists that a lost man can cling to the heretical beliefs that He is NOT deity, openly reject His deity and still be born again.<BR/><BR/>That is the crux of the controversy over the deity of Christ.<BR/><BR/>Then, there is the GES reductionist assaults on the cross and resurrection of Christ.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-27847362771905574292008-10-10T20:45:00.000-05:002008-10-10T20:45:00.000-05:00I am not sure if GES flatly denies the Deity of Ch...I am not sure if GES flatly denies the Deity of Christ and frankly I don't know whether it's even possible to believe in Christ as a mere human (for no human is perfect).<BR/><BR/>However, on the other hand, what exactly one must believe about Jesus Christ? What if someone is oneness Pentacostal, believing that Jesus is the Father (Modalism), is this OK?<BR/><BR/>There are people in churches who believe Jesus is not eternal (they ask: "How can He be eternal if He was born about 2000 years ago?". Are such people saved?<BR/><BR/>I remember trusting in Christ at a very young age. I don't exactly recall what my theology about Christ was. I doubt I could resite the Nicene Creed with full references from the Bible at that time (about 9 or 10 years old).<BR/><BR/>Was I saved then?Vlad Kalininhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08377666864127297520noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-58274831680143863232007-09-07T07:42:00.000-05:002007-09-07T07:42:00.000-05:00Ryan:You wrote, "When I became a believer I did no...Ryan:<BR/><BR/>You wrote, "<I>When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven</I>."<BR/><BR/>I agree with Bret on your statement when he (Bret) wrote, "<I>...you...have so clearly and heartwarmingly said such a clear gospel</I>."<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-18067990979633807452007-09-07T07:39:00.000-05:002007-09-07T07:39:00.000-05:00You wrote, "But, the word Christ, was synonymous w...You wrote, "<I>But, the word Christ, was synonymous with Son of God, which was synonymous with deity (John 4:25-26 & Matthew 26:63-68)</I>."<BR/><BR/>The Bible is clear on this, but the "<I>Crossless/Deityless</I>" advocates simply dismiss these truths in preference what Zane Hodges has determined to be truth.<BR/><BR/>The "<I>Checklist</I>" gimmick is a ruse and distraction from their assault on the titles of the Lord Jesus Christ.<BR/><BR/>Their doctrine has never been so fully exposed, and they do NOT want to defend this, especially the deity of Christ issues.<BR/><BR/>I am confident that in the Shea/Wilkin debate this trampling of the Lord's titles will be addressed and thoroughly refuted.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-34387511257945338312007-09-05T23:26:00.000-05:002007-09-05T23:26:00.000-05:00Hi Bret:Real blessing to read this latest post fro...Hi Bret:<BR/><BR/>Real blessing to read this latest post from you.<BR/><BR/>I'll try to have some thoughts for you tomorrow.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-20242311988342930112007-09-05T18:51:00.000-05:002007-09-05T18:51:00.000-05:00Ryan and Lou I hope you don’t mind me piping in he...Ryan and Lou I hope you don’t mind me piping in here…,<BR/><BR/><I>“<B>When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. </B>However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven.”<BR/><BR/>Let me know what you think, I look forward to your response! :) </I><BR/><BR/>I’ll buy the above. But <B>God considers believing that Jesus is the Son of God as the same thing as believing that his is God</B>.<BR/>You are not likely Jewish, (and for sure not a first century Jew) therefore you may not be aware that when a Jew in that day and age called someone the son of ____ they were implying you have the very essence and nature of the person or thing you put in the blank. We still do that in this day and age but mainly with derogative statements. I won’t go any further in explaining this. :) Needless to say, Jesus constantly identified himself with humanity and with deity by the statements of <I>“Son of Man” and “Son of God”</I>.<BR/><BR/>Why this explanation? When Jesus is referred to as the Son of God it means more than we (modern mankind) hastily assign to it. This is why the question of deity must be developed in evangelism and the Christ we preach must be God in the ear of the evangelized.<BR/><BR/>The lost must know that this man “Christ” (of 1 Cor 15:3) is God. How much of His deity they must know is not easily defined. Probably not much. Just like they don’t have to have a degree in theology to know the basics of what it means that he died for them for their sins.<BR/><BR/>But, the word Christ, was synonymous with Son of God, which was synonymous with deity (John 4:25-26 & Matthew 26:63-68).<BR/><BR/>Obviously, the Holy Spirit is in this world, as we speak, trying to convince the lost of the fact of Christ deity, as shown in John 16:10 and Romans 10:9. This is, of course, because if Christ were a mere man what could He do of you that the guy next door couldn’t do? Making Christ deity known is precisely what John sought to do, so eloquently, through all his writings, both the epistles and his gospel John 1:1-5; 1 John 1:1-2; 2 John 7-11. This is specifically why the crossless deityless gospel is so egregious.<BR/><BR/>One of the quick objections from the crossless pundits is always; <I>“well do they have to know the virgin birth or the truth of the trinity in order for Christ to be constituted God in their thinking”</I>. Absolutely not! Yet, He must be God in some form in their thinking as found in the irreducible gospel minimum of “<B>Christ </B>died for our sins”. We who have studied these truths for a lifetime have not plumbed the depths of these truths. But, if they are consciously <B>denying </B>these truths they have scripture to deal with. John 8:24 so concisely articulates the necessity of believing He is God.<BR/><BR/>Ryan, I must admit from some of your posting above and the ones on the GES site I would not have believed that you would have so clearly and heartwarmingly said such a clear gospel: <BR/><BR/><I>“When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. <B>However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven.”</B></I><BR/><BR/>BretNazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17569948809440339340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-18479493698571315412007-08-29T12:39:00.000-05:002007-08-29T12:39:00.000-05:00Hi Lou,Ok, just looked at the passages and context...Hi Lou,<BR/><BR/>Ok, just looked at the passages and context of the verses you provided. Certainly these are good evidence showing the Deity of Christ, however, they might not prove a "no" answer to "the question" in discussion.<BR/><BR/>When I saw "the question" I tried to also see things in the perspective of a "lost man" or "baby believer" or anyone with no or very little knowledge/understanding of the bible. There is much for them to swallow when hearing the gospel, one being the deity of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>The answer to me depends on the meaning of "deity of Christ" and what about that they are denying. If the question means a person must believe his deity in the sense that Jesus IS God, then my answer is still "yes" it is possible to not believe Jesus IS God, but still be born again. <BR/><BR/>However, if the meaning of "the question" implies that one denies his deity in the sense that Jesus is FROM God, THE one and only Son FROM the one and only God, that we find in the bible, then my answer is "no" they cannot be born again while in this denial.<BR/><BR/>When I became a believer I did not understand that Jesus is God. However, I believed Jesus Christ is the Savior, the Son of God, who died on the cross and rose again paying for my sins so that I was able to go to heaven. <BR/><BR/>Let me know what you think, I look forward to your response! :)<BR/><BR/>RyanMrGiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08355407320104151345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-85852621352205315802007-08-28T21:26:00.000-05:002007-08-28T21:26:00.000-05:00Hi Everyone,LM: We just bought a new house and I'...Hi Everyone,<BR/><BR/>LM: We just bought a new house and I've been installing hardwood floors the last few days! I'm just about done besides a few touch-ups so hopefully I can get more involved here. I love exploring and discussing scripture :)<BR/><BR/>I'm currently looking at the question and passages you posted.<BR/><BR/>While I'm doing so could you elaborate on the two key terms listed below?<BR/><BR/>"consciously" and "deity"<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>RyanMrGiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08355407320104151345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-8891948208951541882007-08-28T21:05:00.000-05:002007-08-28T21:05:00.000-05:00Let me add this though. It's not clear if the Heb...Let me add this though. It's not clear if the Hebrews 10:26-31 people stopped believing in Jesus or the orthodox truths about Him. At most, I can only say that they stopped gathering with other believers and publicly denied Jesus to avoid persecution, while possibly still believing that He is the Son of God and that His sacrifice was still sufficient. Still, whether or not they still believed, they were denying Him and His sacrifice publicly, and forsaking the assembly of believers. <BR/><BR/>Still, we know from other Scripture that Christians can indeed stop believing in Jesus and all the orthodox truths about Him. In Luke 8:12, the result of believing is being saved. The unbelievers in that verse would have been saved if they had believed. But then in Luke 8:13 we read about those who believe for awhile, and fall away from the faith when temptation arrives. Already there is a difference between the unbelievers of 8:12 and the temporary believers of 8:13. Calvinists are once again guilty of eisegesis for reading the idea of "spurious" faith into the passage. The Luke 8:13 people are indeed saved, as it only takes one moment of faith in Jesus specifically for permanent eternal life to be saved. They fall away from the faith, but they are saved, for the result of believing the right message is to be saved. But even in Luke 8:13, there are different types of saved people. Some go on to deny Jesus' Divinity and Finished Work while still believing God exists, some become atheists, and some become flat-out works-salvationists, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-25835742458746942172007-08-28T20:13:00.000-05:002007-08-28T20:13:00.000-05:00Hi Lou. You know that I already believed that mos...Hi Lou. You know that I already believed that most people who deny Jesus' diety likewise reject salvation by grace through faith. But now you know that I changed my mind and can't say for sure that a person can be saved by believing the promise, while denying His diety. Although I can't be sure of their salvation status, one thing is clear - we are not to fellowship with such people, as I've already stated.<BR/><BR/>Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 are clear that believers can trample the Son of God underfoot, and count the blood of the covenant by which they were *sanctified* a common thing (Hebrews 10:29). Calvinists like to argue that the sanctification of Hebrews 10:29 is a non-saving sanctifcation of unbelievers who associate with believers, comparing it to the sanctification of unbelieving spouses by believing spouses in 1 Corinthians 7. It's eisegesis to take 1 Cor 7 and read it into Hebrews 10:29. The context of Hebrews 10:29 shows that it is referring to the permanent sanctification of believers (10:10-14). Jesus' sacrifice has forever perfected those that are sanctified (10:10-14). However, some of those saved Jews in chapter 10 were considering returning to Judaism to escape persecution, and thus considering Jesus' blood, by which they were sanctified, a common thing. They will face a punishment worse than death (10:29), but they are eternally saved (10:10-14). <BR/><BR/>Some people who fall away from the faith go on to deny Jesus' deity. But having once affirmed that Jesus is the Son of God who freely gave them eternal life through His Death/Resurrection, they are saved. People who fall into this category are saved antichrists. John is primarily targeting unbelievers in 1 John 2:22-23, but former believers who now deny the Deity, justification by faith, and other doctrine are saved antichrists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-50885705542950354852007-08-28T19:43:00.000-05:002007-08-28T19:43:00.000-05:00Danny:I appreciate any man who will examine his be...Danny:<BR/><BR/>I appreciate any man who will examine his beliefs in light Scripture.<BR/><BR/>These verses are very clear and direct.<BR/><BR/>“I and My Father are one,” (John 10:30).<BR/><BR/>“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins,” (John 8:24). {cf. Ephesians 2:1}<BR/><BR/>“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also,” ( 1 John 2:22-23).<BR/><BR/>The "Crossless" advocates reinterpret and twist these to negate what they very plainly teach.<BR/><BR/>Keep mediating on what Jesus says about Himself and those who deny His deity.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-64788764541407530172007-08-28T17:30:00.000-05:002007-08-28T17:30:00.000-05:00Hi Lou. After doing some more thinking, I've chan...Hi Lou. After doing some more thinking, I've changed my mind. Now I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward your view that rejecting the Diety of Christ can't lead to salvation. I already stated that I think it's unlikely that anyone who consciously rejects Christ's diety would come to faith in Him for eternal life. Like I said before, if they reject his Diety they will probably reject the idea that eternal life is free. But as you know, I said they would still be saved, though it's a rare occurrence. My answwr is that I'm no longer sure, but leaning toward your view. I can't say yes with absolute certainty. I can't say no with absolute certainity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-35013330180224313332007-08-27T16:04:00.000-05:002007-08-27T16:04:00.000-05:00Thanks Ryan:How I described their position is exac...Thanks Ryan:<BR/><BR/>How I described their position is exactly correct. <BR/><BR/>They consider introducing or asking the sinner to believe anything more than the name Jesus as the Giver of eternal life is adding "excess baggage" to the Gospel. That is from Hodges.<BR/><BR/>I'll look for you later.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-11594697803646594472007-08-27T14:31:00.000-05:002007-08-27T14:31:00.000-05:00Hi LM,If what you said is true about their interpr...Hi LM,<BR/><BR/>If what you said is true about their interpretation of the Gospel then no, I don't agree with that. I believe it is the biblical Son of God, Jesus Christ, who provides eternal life.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I do believe in the deity of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>I see the passages. My answer is still yes, but I'll have a further look tonight when I have more than 2 mins at the computer :)<BR/><BR/>RyanMrGiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08355407320104151345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-48302613276288766242007-08-27T11:58:00.000-05:002007-08-27T11:58:00.000-05:00Jeremy:You wrote, “Anybody who knows the least lit...Jeremy:<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “<I>Anybody who knows the least little bit about what I and others believe, knows that we firmly hold to the deity of Jesus, and that we teach that He must be God in order to offer eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. For you to imply otherwise is not only laughable, but is the most basic of logical fallacies. </I>.”<BR/><BR/>You have misrepresented the basis and subject of my question on Christ’s deity. I never, and you know I never, suggested or implied whether or not you or any “<I>Crossless</I>” gospel advocate personally rejects the deity of Christ. <BR/><BR/>If I have called into question your belief in Christ’s deity, produce the evidence. You can’t because I never did.<BR/><BR/>You and anyone who has read my question can readily see that it has to do with what a lost person believes about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. More specifically, and you know it, the question has to do with the lost man consciously rejecting the deity of Christ.<BR/><BR/>You are going to dodge the question, which has been clear since the first time you acknowledged the question. Dodge the question, but at least be accurate in identifying the exact subject you are not going to answer.<BR/><BR/>If you have any sense of making right a misrepresentation you will do so here in regard to your disingenuous statement above. <BR/><BR/><BR/>LM<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>Can a lost man be born again, <I>while consciously denying the deity of Christ</I>, if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?</B>Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-79595539689547303592007-08-27T11:57:00.000-05:002007-08-27T11:57:00.000-05:00This morning Jeremy Myers at the GES blog wrote, “...This morning Jeremy Myers at the <STRONG><A HREF="https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21260908&postID=5957657323332641799" REL="nofollow">GES blog </A></STRONG>wrote, <BR/><BR/>“<I>The truth is, we all have better things to do than respond to every one of your baseless accusations, let alone in the timeframe that you demand.<BR/><BR/>Anybody who knows the least little bit about what I and others believe, knows that we firmly hold to the deity of Jesus, and that we teach that He must be God in order to offer eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. For you to imply otherwise is not only laughable, but is the most basic of logical fallacies</I>.”<BR/><BR/>I replied at the GES blog as follows in the next post…Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-90075316175865112282007-08-27T11:01:00.000-05:002007-08-27T11:01:00.000-05:00Hello Ryan:You wrote, "a) I don't know anything ab...Hello Ryan:<BR/><BR/>You wrote, "<I>a) I don't know anything about why others you mentioned have not answered this question. b) What is their interpretation and I'll tell you if I agree with it</I>?"<BR/><BR/>1) I have a very good idea why Jeremy Myers (who is on the GES staff) will not answer, but it is speculation at best. The issue is that they are dodging a question on the deity of Christ and that ought to alarm any Bible-believing Christian.<BR/><BR/>2) Their interpretation of the Gospel is that a lost man can born again by believing in the name Jesus for eternal life. The lost man does not need to know or believe that he is a sinner, that Jesus died and rose from the dead for him, done not need not to know or believe Jesus is deity.<BR/><BR/>The clear meaning of passages such as 1 Cor. 15:3-4 and Romans 10:9-10 are dismissed and/or twisted out of shape to nullify the importance of knowing or believing anything about Jesus, the Son of God, his death, burial and resurrection. <BR/><BR/>The “<I>Crossless</I>” gospel is a message that is emptied of any truth beyond knowing some one named Jesus, whoever he may be to the sinner, gives eternal life to any one who believes he can have it from said Jesus. <BR/><BR/>That lost man can be a Mormon who is an ant-Christ by virtue of his rejection of Christ’s deity. The “<I>Crossless</I>” advocate, however, is undeterred. He thinks that Mormon can be born again while trampling the deity of our blessed Lord.<BR/><BR/>For some analysis of the "<EM>Crossless</EM>" gospel, See <STRONG><EM><A HREF="http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2001ii/sapaugh.html" REL="nofollow">A Response to Hodges: How to Lead a Person to Christ, Parts 1 & 2.</A></EM></STRONG><BR/><BR/>As for your "yes," answer. I would encourage you to read the passages below. Then think, in light of the Scriptures: Can a lost man knowingly reject Christ's deity and actually receive the gift of eternal life and be counted as a genuinely born again believer?<BR/><BR/><BR/>LM<BR/><BR/>“I and My Father are one,” (John 10:30).<BR/><BR/>“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for <B>if ye believe not that I am He</B>, ye shall <B>die in your sins</B>,” (John 8:24). {cf. Ephesians 2:1}<BR/><BR/>“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, <B>the same hath not the Father</B>: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also,” ( 1 John 2:22-23).Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-47312185176475152052007-08-27T06:18:00.000-05:002007-08-27T06:18:00.000-05:00Foolish questions that are intended to disrupt doc...Foolish questions that are intended to disrupt doctrinal discussions from "Anonymous" posters will be deleted.<BR/><BR/>Immaturity, especially coming from those who will hide their identity, is not going to be tolerated.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-77779488963887766232007-08-27T02:29:00.000-05:002007-08-27T02:29:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-40368850761755731522007-08-26T21:39:00.000-05:002007-08-26T21:39:00.000-05:00Your welcome.I don't know anything about why other...Your welcome.<BR/><BR/>I don't know anything about why others you mentioned have not answered this question.<BR/><BR/>what is their interpretation and I'll tell you if I agree with it? :)<BR/><BR/>Ryan<BR/><BR/>p.s. Can a lost man be born again if he believes in Jesus for eternal life but wasn't told of Jesus' deity?MrGiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08355407320104151345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-63903248563461005292007-08-26T14:45:00.000-05:002007-08-26T14:45:00.000-05:00MrGiggs:Thank you for a clear, unambiguous answer....MrGiggs:<BR/><BR/>Thank you for a clear, unambiguous answer. I believe a "Yes" answer indicates a serious doctrinal error, but your were transparent. I cannot say the same for Jeremy Myers or Antonio da Rosa since they are dodging this vital question.<BR/><BR/>May I ask if you would ID yourself as in agreement with the Hodges/GES interpretation of the Gospel?<BR/><BR/>Even if you side with them on the “Crossless” interpretation of the gospel I would hope that you find it disturbing they cannot reply to the simple question you just answered.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-30713804920431850182007-08-26T10:49:00.000-05:002007-08-26T10:49:00.000-05:00"Can a lost man be born again while consciously de..."Can a lost man be born again while consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?"<BR/><BR/>Yes.MrGiggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08355407320104151345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-51394549772138896462007-08-26T07:41:00.000-05:002007-08-26T07:41:00.000-05:00Danny:You wrote, “But what if someone did believe ...Danny:<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “<I>But what if someone did believe Jesus was the Divine Son of God, understood his Death/Resurrection, believing in Him for eternal life, but didn't grasp the idea of the Son of God being equal with God the Father</I>?”<BR/><BR/>Hebrews 1:8 & Col. 2:9 remove any doubt about whether or not the Father and the Son are the equal, one in the same! I trust we are clear on that; right?<BR/><BR/>Again, I need to advise that your note above is not the exact crux of my question and concern.<BR/><BR/>In lockstep the "<I>Crossless</I>" gospel advocates believe a lost man can be saved apart from any knowledge, or belief in any thing about Jesus (His deity, cross work, resurrection) Who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation.<BR/><BR/>So, I am asking the men who hold to Hodges' position on the Gospel: <B>Do you believe a lost man, <B>who consciously denies the deity of Christ</B>, can be born again if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?</B><BR/><BR/>It s just that simple. You are one of a few who have given a straight answer to that question. Your answer was, "<I>Yes</I>."<BR/><BR/>Bob Wilkin is mulling over my question and I am looking forward to what I hope will be an answer given in unambiguous, unvarnished terms.<BR/><BR/>The mantra coming from some "<I>Crossless</I>" advocates is, "Well, if they believe Him for eternal life, they can't be denying His deity." That is a dodge!<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-19511038563611459152007-08-25T23:16:00.000-05:002007-08-25T23:16:00.000-05:00Hi Lou. That's why I asked you if I was correct o...Hi Lou. That's why I asked you if I was correct or not, because I couldn't tell from your previous comment and non-answer to my question about the necessity of belief in the co-equality of the Father and Son. I wasn't trying to nail you on anything. That's why I asked if I was correct or not. <BR/><BR/>But what if someone did believe Jesus was the Divine Son of God, understood his Death/Resurrection, believing in Him for eternal life, but didn't grasp the idea of the Son of God being equal with God the Father?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-87477666358825113572007-08-25T23:07:00.000-05:002007-08-25T23:07:00.000-05:00Danny:I know written communication can seem rough ...Danny:<BR/><BR/>I know written communication can seem rough and harsh at times. What I am about to tell you is emphatic, but not meant to be harsh.<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “<I>I take that you don't see Jesus' co-equality with the Father as a major doctrine...</I>”<BR/><BR/>Please do not reference, attribute or link the subject of your comment above to me or any believer unless you have it irrefutably documented from the one you suggest holds a position like that. <BR/><BR/>You did not charge me with heresy, but suggesting I may view the deity of Christ as something less than a MAJOR doctrine feels like the first cousin of heresy to me.<BR/><BR/>Part of my deity question to Jeremy included references to Col. 2:9 & Heb 1:8.<BR/><BR/>“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”<BR/><BR/>“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”<BR/><BR/>The deity of Christ, which is <B>His being 100% equal to the Father, is a MAJOR doctrine</B>. For that very reason, I chose it as the subject of my question to the “<I>Crossless</I>” advocates. May I remind you that Jeremy Myers has refused to answer this question on what is a MAJOR doctrine. He has been evasive and disingenuous, but I am going to keep it before him.<BR/><BR/>Again, I am not trying to be harsh, but you need to be careful about what you suggest or attribute to another man unless you have it down pat.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com