The Netherlands: In Defense of the Gospel
Over the past few years I have received multiple contacts from foreign countries in which the writers express appreciation for what they find here at IDOTG. The Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel attracts the most world wide attention because its insidious spread and corruption of the Gospel of grace is not limited to the church in America. For example I have heard from believers in Germany, Zambia, England, Ireland, Pakistan, Japan, South Africa, Hungary and even a few from Alabama.* This week I heard from Mr. Robert Bezemer who lives in the Netherlands. What follows are samples from his recent e-mails to me that I am sharing with you with Robert’s permission.
My name is Robert Bezemer, I am 23 years old and I live in the Netherlands. I need to testify of the gracious work of God through your blog (and other websites) that clarify the serious errors of Lordship Salvation (LS). I did listen to sermons preached by John Piper and John MacArthur and recognized they have compromised the gospel of grace. I also own a book written by A.W. Pink, called Studies on Saving Faith in which he gives the impression that simple, childlike faith in Jesus Christ is not enough for salvation. Now I know it is better to warn of and even avoid such books. I know it is wrong to make an idol of certain preachers, and it was a great blessing to know that my salvation is fully accomplished! But I think certain American Lordship advocates are regrettably quite popular in Holland.Robert posted a comment under one of the most read articles at IDOTG, Summary of Lordship Salvation From a Single Page, which is one of the most read articles at this blog. In comment #136 he wrote,
LS really frustrates the Gospel, there is nothing that can be called “Grace” in the LS theology! It is shocking, but I think we can state something like this: “The teaching of LS implicates that Christ’s death was of no worth, because if I do NOT make a commitment, I will be lost forever, even though Christ paid for my sins!”
The danger of LS is that we don’t look to the blood of Christ, His death, burial and resurrection, but that we are asking, “Do I forsake enough for the sake of Christ?” I have found great rest, especially through the articles and teachings of the Middletown Bible Church and now I can understand what you are saying at your blog IDOTG. There is a distinction between SALVATION and DISCIPLESHIP and LS fails at this point. I will also put a link on my blog to your website and I will remove the links to HeartCry and Desiring God.
I live in the Netherlands and I can testify of the gracious work that God has done through this blog and through the website of the Middletown Bible Church. The Gospel presents Jesus Christ and Him crucified, buried and risen on the third day. His blood is all-sufficient for anyone's salvation. The great error of Lordship Salvation is that it fails to distinguish SALVATION and DISCIPLESHIP. It claims someone gets saved because of his COMMITMENT to Christ, but that is NOT salvation, it is discipleship. When I make a commitment in order to get saved, I can boast in something else than the work of Christ on the cross. The danger of LS is that we don’t look to the blood of Christ, but that we are asking “Do I forsake enough for the sake of Christ?” I hope it will encourage others to trust in Christ just like a little child and that there will be taken away such a great burden no one can bear.In a new e-mail Robert wrote,
I just want to share with you a passage I read from John Piper’s book What Jesus Demands from the World, in the footnote on page 161: I just want to share with you a passage I read from John Piper’s book What Jesus Demands from the World, in the footnote on page 161: “Though it may cause confusion, it is possible to use the word ‘justify’ to describe how the fruit of good behavior works in the day of judgment. The fruits can ‘justify’ us in the sense of proving that we are believers and belong to Jesus and have a right standing with God in him. That is how I understand Matthew 12:37, ‘By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.’ It is as though the Judge said, ‘The evidence is compelling: Your words warrant the judgment that you are a true believer in my Son and have rested your case with him and banked on his righteousness for acceptance in this court.’ Or: ‘Your words justify [warrant, validate] the conclusion of this court that you have trusted in the righteousness of Jesus Christ for your justification in this court’.”Other quotations Robert shared from from Piper’s What Jesus Demands from the World include,
“But though our lived-out perfection only comes in heaven, Jesus really does transform us now, and this transformation is really necessary for final salvation” - page 160Robert went on to say,
“There is no doubt that Jesus saw some measure of real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation.” - page 160
Subheading: “Some measure of real, lived-out obedience is required.” - page 160
“This is the meaning of self-denial. Renounce everything on earth in order that you might have the Kingdom.” - page 85
There is NO word from Piper on the atoning work of Christ, NO word about His blood, NO word about “It is finished!” It is still the message, ‘you have reached a degree of righteousness.’ If there is 100% truth in that, it would mean that NO Christian can have assurance of salvation, except before the throne of God/Christ! Piper is making the FRUIT of faith the basis for salvation, not the faith in Christ itself.We thank God for men like Robert who, in his corner of the world, has discerned that Lordship Salvation is a false,non-saving, works-based message that corrupts the simplicity that is Christ (2 Cor. 11:3) and frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). Robert told me that he and fellow believers in the Netherlands are doing what they can to slow and reverse the spread of Lordship Salvation where they are.
You may visit Robert Bezemer at his Salvation in God blog.
LM
*I trust my good friends in Alabama will forgive me, I just had to, with Oregon a close second.
For Related Reading:
John MacArthur’s Position on Lordship Salvation, by George Zeller.
John MacArthur’s Discipleship Gospel
I've often said that North America needs foreign missionaries to come here. We've fallen out of step with the Spirit. We've begun building a new religion.
ReplyDeleteNorth America needs men like Robert to come here and wake us up.
Kev
Speaking of falling out of step with the Spirit, this is one thing I have really tripped over with comments like Piper's that Robert sited. When Piper says we need our works to prove in the day of judgment that we really had saving faith, what he is saying is that we are on a sort of probation until that time. God has not made a final determination concerning our eternity until this judgment (I wonder what this does to the Calvinist doctrine of election?). But here is a problem that occurred to me recently with this: when does said person get the Holy Spirit? Christianity has always taught that we are given the Holy Spirit to indwell when we have believed, as a seal of the promise and the guarantee of our inheritance, etc. This presents a problem because now the Holy Spirit cannot indwell a person until God sees that the faith is real because there is the fruit that real faith produces. There are so many problems here it is hard to know where to begin.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the fruit in the believer's life is brought forth by the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22). How is this supposed to happen if He is not present to bring it forth? Second, this necessarily divorces the Holy Spirit from the gospel to which He testifies. Now He comes not in response to Christ's finished work but in response to the believer's faith being validated before God by works. Instead of His testimony being the acceptance of the believer in Christ because Christ is accepted, His testimony is that the believer really is a believer so He can come indwell them. In this case He testifies to the believer's work, not Christ's. But third, since it is obvious that the Holy Spirit cannot indwell those who do not have saving faith, and now we must wait for that final determination to be made at some judgment seat or other (and which one anyway?, which is a whole other problem), we cannot ever have the Holy Spirit indwelling us until heaven, assuming we get heaven.
This is absolutely impossible. God cannot require the works of faith to determine, at some time future to the moment of believing--especially after the person has died--whether or not the person had saving faith because this would necessitate the withholding of the Holy Spirit from that person until this determination is made. Or else it would wreak havoc on the Holy Spirit's testimony as He has only two possible testimonies for a person: either He convicts them of their lost estate and condemnation under God's wrath or He convicts them that they are indeed children of God, bearing witness with their spirit that this is so. How is He supposed to be consistent under these conditions? I don't see how He can. He certainly cannot say you are a child of God if God has not yet made that determination because that determination is dependent on works and must be made at the end of one's life. But if you are not a child of God then you are a child of the devil and He must convict you of your lost estate.
This is making my head spin.
JanH
Lou,
ReplyDeleteGreat article.. and great discernment from across the pond.
Robert and Jan's comments absolutely nail the fallacy of Lordship or commitment "salvation."
Kev said it right that we need those strong in Grace to come over here to wake us up... But even so we still have a few here who have not bowed the knee to Baal. And yet, on your Blog and mine we see so many who fight the truth to remain wallowing in darkness.
Praying for y'all - Stand strong!!
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Jan,
ReplyDeleteBTW, that WAS a superb analysis of the lies of not only LS but Calvinism, from Piper's view.
Great Stuff!
In Christ, Jack
I appreciate the comments from each of you. It is encouraging to read and hear from believers in other countries who have discerned that LS fails the test of Scripture.
ReplyDeleteFWIW, Robert is 6 or 7 hours ahead of us. I'm sure he will appreciate the comments and reply over the weekend.
I will have a few more replies to each of you as well.
Lou
Praise God for sharing! Thank you Robert in Netherlands.
ReplyDeleteHello Lou and others,
ReplyDeleteI want to thank you for the encouraging words and responses. Let me just say something about the statements I read in 'What Jesus Demands from the World'. Piper writes confusing at least and heretical at worse. He writes, that Jesus saw some measure of real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as NECESSARY for FINAL salvation. There are two errors here. One is, that Jesus doesn't see some measure of real, lived-out obedience as NECESSARY FOR salvation, but Christ describes it as a RESULT OF salvation. The second is, that Piper talks about FINAL salvation, which implies that there are degrees of salvation through perfectionism. God doesn't justify us at the judgment day, He justifies His children HERE on earth at the moment they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the public declaration of BEING JUSTIFIED will be made at the judgment day. Then the children of God will hear from Christ Himself, 'You are justified, well done, faithful servant, enherit the Kingdom of My Father which He has prepared for you'. We need to make a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. A person can not FOLLOW Christ if He doesn't COME TO Christ. Following Christ means learning from Him and that is discipleship; it will take the rest of your life. If a person doesn't follow Christ, we need to ask him, 'Did you COME TO Christ?' Zero works = zero justification, zero following Christ = zero coming to Christ. And yes, discipleship is DEMANDED for every believer who comes to Christ, but not for lost sinners who are seeking after salvation.
I encourage you all to read Scripture, to search for Christ and to read the articles on the christian life at middeltownbiblechurch.org!
May God grant you mercy and peace from Jesus our Saviour and Lord,
Robert
BTW when I need to describe the way of salvation, I love to use the example of John chapter 10.
ReplyDeleteJesus says this:
'But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.' (vss. 2-4)
'I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.' (verse 9)
In other words: the first step in salvation is ENTERING THE DOOR, which is JESUS CHRIST. Then, Christ knows His sheep and the sheap hear His voice and, look at verse 4, they FOLLOW HIM.
Justification = entering
Sanctification = following
Robert
Hi Robert-
ReplyDeleteGlad to "meet" you!
What you said here:
...that Piper talks about FINAL salvation, which implies that there are degrees of salvation through perfectionism.
Is right along the line of what I am talking about. When we get the Holy Spirit, that is the seal and promise that God has already declared us righteous. The salvation is finished in His book. There is no further, future judgment regarding where we will spend eternity. When Christ said, "it is finished," that is what He meant. Nothing further need be nor can be added to His finished work to guarantee our eternity with Him. He CANNOT use the fruit in our lives to determine our salvation. The concept does so much damage to so many basic doctrines it is staggering Piper would ever consider it at all. It voids the testimony of the Holy Spirit and, as you are alluding to, adds to Christ's cross work.
BTW, I too have gleaned much from the Middletown Bible Church site. George Zeller has helped me out with a lot of stuff.
I hope you'll be able to join our conversations regularly!
JanH
There seems to be some confusion about what is meant by final salvation. It isn't a term I ever use, but I know what it means.
ReplyDeleteIt simply means that salvation is not simply frontloaded. Salvation is a past, present, and future reality for all christians.
When God declares righteous the believing sinner, he justifies that person. That is, he declares him righteous. That does not mean everything the person does is righteous, far from it. However, he has been told in advance of standing before God, that he has forever been declared righteous.
As God works in a person's heart and mind, sanctification is progressing into what we have been declared.
Finally, when our practice is in perfect harmony with our declared state, we call that glorification. Glorification does not happen prior to death(rapture).
Jan, all believers get the Spirit as a down payment of their salvation. There seems to be some confusion on your part as to what is meant because of some of the questions you were asking. Final salvation does not mean final determination. Salvation is not frontloaded anymore than it is backloaded. It has a definite beginning, a process, and a definite conclusion. God is not waiting to see anything. He is the one who has declared righteous.
Tony
I have not read Piper's book "What Jesus Demands from the World." I do not know the context of this quote, but I wanted to touch on this quickly.
ReplyDelete“But though our lived-out perfection only comes in heaven, Jesus really does transform us now, and this transformation is really necessary for final salvation” - page 160
How is this quote a problem? Can someone explain this to me? The statement proves that perfection does not gain entrance to heaven and claims that transformation takes place in this life.
Piper is no hero of mine so don't get me wrong. However our critiques need to be accurate and substantion, not frivolous. I would like someone to explain to me the problem of this quote. Thanks.
Tony
Final salvation does not mean final determination.
ReplyDeleteTony, MacArthur used the word “determine” here in the context of final judgment, which clearly implies that there is a final determination of our salvation status, and that determination is based on our works:
“We cannot be saved by works, but we have been saved to do good works. Therefore when God judges, He will look at a man’s works to determine if salvation has indeed taken place. An unbeliever’s works will reveal his unbelief. They will reveal the absence of God in his life because all his works will be unrighteous. Even when he tries to be righteous his works will turn out to be filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). The believer, however, by faith has been given the power of God to produce righteous works. His salvation will be clearly indicated by them. God looks at a person’s works. If He sees manifestations of righteousness, He knows that the person is regenerated. If He sees no such manifestation of righteousness, He knows that the person is unregenerate. Therefore God’s final judgment can be rendered on the basis of works.”
(I used this quote, adding the bolding, in an article on this blog that can be found here:
http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/search?q=let+your+yes+be+kinda+sorta
The original site I took it from has shut down, but Stephen placed another source for it in the comment section of that thread.)
I maintain that there is no way God can look at our works to determine if salvation has taken place and also send the Holy Spirit to indwell us prior to such determination being made. And when they speak of this in terms of “final judgment,” we have a probationary salvation where the Holy Spirit cannot be sent until the fruit is assessed in God's presence after life is over.
Taken with Piper's quotes:
“There is no doubt that Jesus saw some measure of real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation.”
...Jesus really does transform us now, and this transformation is really necessary for final salvation.
I understand these men both hold the same view of final salvation. If they don't that would be good to know. Therefore, Piper and MacArthur would both claim a final determination for salvation based on works to determine what sort of faith we had. What these men describe is a salvation in process and therefore unfinished, waiting for a final determination based on works. I think theirs is the misunderstanding and confusion. Instead of describing salvation as a process, as though it were not a finished work, I think it is better to see it as a finished, applied work, the outworking of which is a process. The difference being between position and condition. This allows the Holy Spirit to be sent to indwell the believer and carry on the work of practical sanctification because the person is in fact already saved/already declared righteous, not in order to determine if they were really saved, using the works they did as the basis for whether or not their faith was really saving faith. Plus, it does not violate Christ Alone as this outworking is the result of a salvation determination/judgment already rendered, not a condition for entrance into heaven. And I have not been able to see how Piper's quotes do not add to Christ Alone for our salvation.
But all of this is resolved by seeing practical sanctification as an outworking of a finished, applied work rather than an unfinished process.
JanH
Jan, some of what we are talking about goes back to our discussion of Rom 2:13, but again, you are lumping ideas together that would go against what each of these men would say.
ReplyDeleteGod is not waiting to see or learning as though he does not know. This is what justification is about. God already has declared the end result.
The Holy Spirit is given at the precise moment of conversion so that fruit may be produced. I found this quote from MacArthur regarding Eph 1:13-14:
"God's own Spirit comes to indwell the believer and secures and preserves his eternal salvation. The sealing of which Paul speaks refers to an official mark of identification placed on the letter, contract, or other document. That document was thereby officially under the authority of the person whose stamp was on the seal."
There are multiple passages that speak of God's judgment of our works. It isn't a probationary salvation at all. It is simply to say that God's judgment is based in reality and examines a person, not just their claims. All Christians will be saved. This doesn't deny a real, present salvation. It is in fact a guarantee that our salvation is NOT in question and will reach its full measure in the future.
I hope that helps.
Tony
Hello Robert,
ReplyDeleteI like how you, in your article, brought into focus the critical distinction between salvation and discipleship, for in doing so, you've made impossible the FRONT DOOR approach to LS. Fantastic.
But, and I don't know whether you've considered this or not, there is a BACK DOOR approach to Lordship Salvation that needs to be guarded against as well. It goes like this:
"Robert, if He's not Lord of all of your life, He's not Lord at all in your life". It's the same as saying, if you're not producing good works, you're not born-again. This position, though often well-intended, is unbiblical (see Lot; see 1 Cor. 3:15; see Mt. 7:21-23, etc.) and has serious consequences...two of which are a) false assurance of salvation for religious unbelievers b) no assurance of salvation for believers who are honest with their post-coversion lives. Lordship salvationists in particular love this error for it leads the unsuspecting to thier false gospel, but again, not through the front door, but via the back door. It's subtle.
Question: Are you not leading folks to LS via the back-door with your unbiblical position of "Zero works = zero justification, zero following Christ = zero coming to Christ"?
Jimmy
Hello Jimmy,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, thanks for your response. I agree with you: it was not so smart to write it down this way. But what I meant is that if a person has absolutely nothing to prove that is born-again, there should be at least a sincere doubt regarding his 'salvation'. I totally agree with your comment. I apologize for those words. It would be better to turn it around:
Zero justification = zero good works and Zero coming to Christ = zero following Christ - the second phase is impossible with the lack of the first one; that's what I meant.
Robert
Robert,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
But what I meant is that if a person has absolutely nothing to prove that is born-again, there should be at least a sincere doubt regarding his 'salvation'.
If we really believe (as the Bible says) that our salvation is based entirely on -- by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone -- then why should we ever have any reason to doubt our salvation?
Jesus said in John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Believe it!!! That among many, many more verses is absolutely definitive. There is no doubt!!!
The Lord does not need to see evidence of our salvation.. He knows and sealed us when we trusted Christ.
A lukewarm believer in Christ may feel guilty that he is not producing good works - but should never doubt his salvation. However the LS folks will grab such a person, try to convince him he may not be saved and then put doubt in his mind. Such is the slick trick of LS.
Remember the admonition that salvation and discipleship are not the same.
Salvation is our standing, unchanging, fixed eternally and sealed by God's Holy Spirit.. never to be broken.
Yet Discipleship is our current state, ever changing, subject to events and determined by our personal will day to day - yet we should be motivated by the Love of Christ:
"For the love of Christ constraineth us;...." 2 Corinthians 5:14a
Keep up the good work Robert.. and thanks for the discussion.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
I'm sorry Tony. I can't agree with you.
ReplyDeleteThis:
God is not waiting to see or learning as though he does not know. This is what justification is about.
excludes this:
It is simply to say that God's judgment is based in reality and examines a person, not just their claims.
Either the judgment is already rendered or it is not.
In fact, judgment IS already rendered per John 3:18.
The results of salvation are just that: results. They are not a means by which God judges us to see if we are saved. God is indeed a realist. His judgment of our works as pertaining to our salvation is that all our works are filthy rags. He does not look at our works to see if our faith is genuine. He has no need to do that. Further, His judgment is based on the work of His Son, whom we have either trusted or we have not. The giving of the Holy Spirit is the proof the judgment has already been rendered and that we do indeed have saving faith, else we would not be given the Holy Spirit. And we did no works to get that, we only believed. Therefore, there is no need to speak of a future judgment of God toward us based on our works that deals with our salvation. He does not look at our works to see if our faith is genuine. He already knows if it is. He looks on the heart. If it were not genuine, He would not give us the Holy Spirit.
And saying that our salvation will reach its full measure in the future implies that it has not done so yet in any sense. This is only true concerning our condition. True, we are not yet experientially glorified. However, positionally we are already glorified (Romans 8:30) and seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6).
Our salvation not being finished also implies that there is more necessary to accomplish it than what Christ did on the cross. In other words, "it is finished" should never have been uttered. This goes against Christ Alone because it must now be Christ + works/fruit, and it does not matter whether the works/fruit are done by us or by God in us because either way it is an addition to His cross work for our salvation.
I don't know how to escape these conclusions.
Thanks for trying, though.
JanH
Jan, my two statements do NOT exclude each other. I will try again to explain so you can escape the conclusions. What I am saying, and what the NT spells out for us, is exactly the same thing.
ReplyDelete1. God declares righteous believing sinners. Salvation does NOT stop there. This is only the beginning.
2. According to Rom 2, I Cor 3, II Cor 5, Rom 14, etc, believers are judged based on works. Good works endure the tests.
3. John 3:18 has no bearing on this issue. The believer has no chance of facing condemnation. That is something all people who believe in eternal security believe.
4. You seem to make the error that salvation is entirely frontloaded and everything else is just a result. This is not true. Paul speaks of saved, being saved, and will be saved. Hebrews the same thing. Paul also compares what happens at justification as the beginning (Phil 1:6).
5. The judgment of sin on Christ is NOT the judgment that believers or unbelievers will be judged by. The unbeliever will be judged based on his own works according to Revelation 20, 21. The believer's works are judged as good or worthless. There isn't one judgment. The NT speaks of at least these 3.
6. "And saying that our salvation will reach its full measure in the future implies that it has not done so yet in any sense."
I am not implying this. I am explicitly saying this. So did you in your next line. Our salvation is complete based on promise, but it has not been realized by those still living.
7. "Our salvation not being finished also implies that there is more necessary to accomplish it than what Christ did on the cross."
No it doesn't. It means simply that God Himself put into the plan of salvation a beginning, process, and conclusion (Phil 1:6).
I hope this helps. If you want to respond to any of this, please follow my numbered points to make this easier. Thanks.
Tony
Tony, I always seem to enjoy your discussions with Jan. It seems to me that you are saying that salvation includes. Justification, sanctification (positionally and progressively) and glorification (or apparently as some call "final salvation"). I have no problems with that if that is what you mean. The problem is, as Jimmy mentioned earlier, that LS proponents will key in on areas of progressive sanctification like obedience, fruit, discipleship and get a person to question their salvation if they haven't "made Jesus Lord". I've encounter this at times. It would be better if people like MacArthur and Piper would clearly explain the gospel to begin with. Mabye then there would not be so much confusion.
ReplyDeleteJim F.
Robert,
ReplyDeleteI encourages me greatly to hear that you are standing up against the errors of LS. You said,
There is NO word from Piper on the atoning work of Christ, NO word about His blood, NO word about “It is finished!” It is still the message, ‘you have reached a degree of righteousness.’ If there is 100% truth in that, it would mean that NO Christian can have assurance of salvation, except before the throne of God/Christ! Piper is making the FRUIT of faith the basis for salvation, not the faith in Christ itself.
It is true that Piper often overemphasizes fruit. This goes back to some of his Calvinist views. As far as assurance, I think what ExPreacherman said is right. We can have assurance in Christ as believers. I think the problem comes in when man sins and robs himself of the joy that should be his in Christ. This is a relationship issue, not a positional salvation issue. The remedy is found in I John 1:9. It is also true that a LS proponent could use this Romans 7 struggle to lead a man to embrace their Lordship views. That is why it is so important to know the scriptures and sound doctrine to be able to properly counsel a person who is saved but dealing with a particular sin issue. It is always important to keep their standing in Christ in view. Satan loves it when people get their focus off of Christ and back on to themselves.
Stay strong in Christ,
Jim F.
Tony-
ReplyDeletePoint 4: I'm not sure what you mean by "front loaded" but if you are saying we are not complete in Christ then again I have to disagree with you.
Point 6: If you would make a distinction between our position and our condition, then I would be satisfied.
JanH
Regarding the issue of assurance, Miles Stanford wrote an article (which is chapter 20 of his book The Complete Green Letters) called Justification and Assurance, which I think is excellent. Under the topic of assurance, among a number of very useful things, Stanford says this (emphases mine):
ReplyDeleteIt is here that the first major mistake in our Christian life is often made. In taking the position of justification by faith in the Lord Jesus, this new standing of life began to make a marked difference in our state. Because of this, we shifted the basis of our assurance from eternal position to temporal condition. We looked, and felt, and sounded saved, hence we were assured of our salvation.
But then, one morning came the dawn! We didn’t look very saved, we didn’t feel at all saved, and so we didn’t sound saved either. All day long everything and everybody went wrong, and by nightfall we found ourselves at the end of our assurance. Thoroughly shaken, we determined to rectify matters the next day. On that day we strove to look saved, to feel saved, and to sound saved. But, because we were centered in our condition, all was wretched failure. We even began to question our salvation. “…If the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us?” (Judges 6:13).
In the Lord’s time, the Comforter refocused our faith upon our position by means of the Word, and our assurance of salvation was again anchored upon the Rock, Christ Jesus. With this assurance reestablished, our condition began to improve as a result of the position in which we stood by faith. We had learned our first important lesson: the necessity of knowing and abiding in our position. Apart from this abiding, there is nothing but frustration and failure. “And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance for ever” (Isa. 32:17).
Assurance on the basis of Christ's work and that alone as testified by the word is absolutely NOT opposed to righteousness in our condition. On the contrary, it is a necessary prerequisite to it.
http://withchrist.org/mjs/assurance.htm
JanH
Tony,
ReplyDeleteI am trying to follow your conversation with JanH and apologize because I am not clear about your remarks.
Are you approaching salvation from a Reformed/Calvinist position?
Are you saying that some are chosen to believe from the foundation of the world?
Exactly how is "Salvation ...a past.. reality for all christians?"
I simply do not understand from whence your doctrine is derived.
Thanks,I appreciate your discussion.
In Jesus Christ eternally, Jack
Great to see some European input to this debate. I'm also from Europe, Finland to be more precise.
ReplyDeleteI think we need to be very discerning in this issue. We can't win back our secular continent by preaching moralistic Gospel. Sinners need to hear about the atoning work of Christ and His resurrection, not some fruit inspection instructions!
Robert, I put your blog in my favorites. I will try to read it through Google translate, hehe.
I was hugely impacted by Charlie Bing's dissertation on LS a while back. You can find it online here:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/dissertation.asp
Matti:
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your story with us. Like you Dr. Bing's dissertation was a big help to me. When I was a missionary in South Africa I had to write a position paper for the college, which grew to be my book, IDOTG. At the time Dr. Bing's dissertation was made known to me and I received a copy. It was a huge help and confidence builder.
Lou M
I should get a copy of your book, it's good to have literature on this important issue.
ReplyDeleteI want to share some deveploments with you. Our church invited Dr. Bing to visit and speak at the Easter seminar of our churches (Greater Grace World Outreach) in spring 2012. It's going to be great! Moreover, my pastor has been very impressed with David Anderson's book Free Grace Soteriology and it's gaining popularity in our churches.
Jack, if you are a Christian, then there was a point in time experience when you were converted.
ReplyDeleteTony
Tony:
ReplyDeleteI want to explain how interactions work here at IDOTG. If asked a question an answer should be given. What I do not appreciate is ignoring and/or answering a question with a question.
Earlier in this thread Jack asked you a question, which deserves an answer prior to your coming back to him with something different. Maybe you did not see his question. In that case, please refer back to his comment to you from 9/5 @ 8:16pm.
LM
Matti:
ReplyDeleteDr. Bing will do a great job at your seminar. I have known him since 1997 and we finally met 4 years ago at a grace conference. He is one of the endorsers of my book and I post articles by him here at my blog.
I will get back to you on Dave Andersons book.
LM
Robert,
ReplyDeleteHello again Robert,
It's been a busy week/weekend, so just now getting back to your responce, which I thank you for. Also, I'm glad to see you received my prior comments in such a mature spirit.
Now to one of your latest responces:
You replied, "...what I meant is that if a person has absolutely nothing to prove that is born-again, there should be at least a sincere doubt regarding his 'salvation'."
It's hard to know by your wording exactly what you meant here, but allow me to cover the possible bases:
If we hold the position that a believer should doubt HIS OWN salvation due to his having no good works in his life, then we are, in reality, saying the believer's Assurance of Salvation is based, atleast in part, upon his works. This position would unfortunately be decidedly unbiblical (please read 1 Jn. 5:10-13), and plays directly into our Advisary's program of rendering the believer useless in the cause of his Savior.
It seems more likely you were suggesting with your comment that Person A should doubt the eternal state of Person B if Person B lacks good works. Unfortunately, we would be holding yet another unbiblical position here as well. Some have good works in plenty, but are unbelievers nonetheless (see Mt. 7:21-23; see account of Cornelius). Some have no good works, but are indeed saved (e.g. 1Cor. 3:15; in the case of Lot 2 Peter 2:7, etc.).
Lest I be misunderstood, we Christians should (not will, but should) walk in good works (Eph. 2:10). Earthly chastisement results when we believers do otherwise. Loss of reward (not salvation, but reward) at the Judgement Seat of Christ is yet another consequence (1 Cor. 3:11-17; 2 Cor. 5:10-11). But works/lack of works cannot tell us whether or not someone else is saved, nor should works/lack of works ever be used as a basis for the believer's assurance of salvation.
In closing, I share these things with you brother because you are discerning, and in hopes that you can avoid the same mistakes I once made with regard to the error of using works as a litmus test for a) assurance of salvation..which is for the believer himself only or b) for attempting to determine whether someone else is saved.
Yours in Christ,
Jimmy
Jan:
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% with Miles Stanford's stating of biblical Assurance, but I'm confused by your statement, "Assurance on the basis of Christ's work and that alone as testified by the word is absolutely NOT opposed to righteousness in our condition. On the contrary, it is a necessary prerequisite to it."
What are you saying exactly?
Jimmy
Hello Jimmy,
ReplyDeleteYesterday I found a great and clarifying recourse. In short, it states that there are 2 'phases' of justification. The first is being justified before God by grace THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST and the second is being justified before men BY WORKS. The clue is this: God knows your heart and knows you believe in Christ, but other men can only see our works. I agree with your comment. It will be helpful to read this:
http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Resources/Web/www.duluthbible.org/g_f_j/James2_Pt1.htm
http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Resources/Web/www.duluthbible.org/g_f_j/James2_Pt2.htm
Your brother in Christ,
Robert
Hello Robert:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the information. I was unable to pull up the first article, but was successful with the second...which I thought was very good for the purposes of our discussion.
The author summed it up best IMO when he stated, "THEREFORE TO JUDGE A PERSON’S SALVATION ON THE BASIS OF HIS/HER WORKS (AS DO LORDSHIP SALVATIONISTS) IS VERY DANGEROUS AND OFTEN MISLEADING."
Couldn't have said it better.
Have a great week,
Jimmy
Lou, I am not sure what it is you are referring to unless you mean the calvinist questions. My post was an answer to his third question, which is what I thought he was driving at to begin with. I wasn't intentionally ignoring him.
ReplyDelete1. Regarding my approach, it is not from the Reformed/Calvinist position.
2. I assume you mean election the way the reformed/calvinist does. If that is what you are asking, then again, no.
3. In my post I explained what I meant by salvation being a past reality for all Christians. Salvation is a package that had a definite beginning (justification), definite process (sanctification, and definite conclusion (glorification).
Sorry if anyone felt slighted. I hope this helps.
Tony
Tony:
ReplyDeleteThat will work.
LM
Lou:
ReplyDeleteI asked Jan a question, but it appears to not have gone through for some reason. Let's try again:
Jan:
Miles Stanford's position on Assurance of Salvation is biblical right down the line. I do not understand, however, your apparent personal summary statment of his remarks.
You state, "Assurance on the basis of Christ's work and that alone as testified by the word is absolutely NOT opposed to righteousness in our condition. On the contrary, it is a necessary prerequisite to it."
What exactly are you saying with, "NOT opposed to righteousness in our condition"?
Jimmy
Matti:
ReplyDeletePlease e-mail me at-
indefense06@gmail.com
I'd like to provide you with a copy of my book.
LM