The Necessity of Forbidden Fellowship (Redux)
Dear Guests:
What follows is an addendum to The Necessity of Forbidden Fellowship, which appeared last week.
I can appreciate and understand the pain and discouragement there is when we see once biblically balanced men going off into the extremes of the Grace Evangelical Society (GES) “Crossless” interpretation of the Gospel. Some of these were former teachers and/or close associates. You may have stood side-by-side with them against the Lordship Salvation assault on the Gospel. Your friend, however, may be one that has gone too far in the other direction, which has been right into the reductionist errors of the Crossless gospel.
If you have done all you can to admonish and recover men who have fallen into the trap of the GES “Crossless” gospel, but they will not respond, you are left with one option. You are compelled to break fellowship with another Christian who has become an instigator of this extremist theology. When this day comes let us hope it is with a heavy heart. Your motive ought to be fidelity to the Scriptures, and a desire for the brother to see his error and repent of it. 
You may have or are about to come to that fork in the road with a friend who has chosen to walk the way of the Crossless gospel. Will you follow him on that path or walk in obedience to the biblical mandates?
There will be a cost to “contend” with another otherwise Bible believing Christian in your own circles who holds to the Crossless gospel and biblically “mark” him because of his errant position. However, the Scriptural command in Jude 3 to “earnestly contend for the faith” and from Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15 are not open to selective application.
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple,” (Rom. 16:17-18).Those are the mandated courses of action found in the Word of God.
“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. . . . And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother,” (2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15)
If you truly love these erring brethren you will follow the biblical mandates to- withdraw, mark and avoid. It is God’s way to recover them and protect the body of Christ from being swept up into doctrinal error. You can’t improve on God’s plan!
LM
Hey Lou,
ReplyDeleteInteresting thoughts. You said
However, the Scriptural command in Jude 3 to “earnestly contend for the faith” and from Rom. 16:17; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15 are not open to selective application.
This is the idea that I am currently contending with. What to do with the person or persons who need to be ministered to, but who require a level of effort and an amount of time that will erode your other efforts and ministries in other areas?
Clearly, even though we are indwelled and endowed by the Holy Spirit of God we are still limited beings. A store owner will send a customer who is too much of a burden away so that he can profit from his other customers.
But we don't see profit from our "customers" we seek that they be in fellowship and fruitful, that we might have some fruit among them.
As I discuss topics that are a passion to me I often find times when I am late for other engagements or my mind is distracted from other commitments due to the conversation, argument, or ministration with some people.
Surely the Spirit of God will lead us where He intends and we can rest in that but on a daily basis I do find these thoughts pre-occupy my mind. Am I doing what is best to be done right now, and are my efforts producing the fruit He would have me produce?
I'm happy to spend the rest of my days working with a single person.. but the conflict between that and all the other things I feel burdened for is typified, and increased, by the portion of your post that I have quoted.
Kev
Kev:
ReplyDeleteI have been thinking about and experiencing the same dilemma.
I have been thinking about, "redeeming the time," and asking the Lord to help me to use each day profitably. I will ask myself, "Is this the best use of my time?"
As I read your note I thought of Paul and Barnabas going separate ways, and both were profitable. Some what different application, but helpful.
We are called to build (edify) and battle (contend). We simply need to rely on God to help us strike the right balance.
Lou
As I read your note I thought of Paul and Barnabas going separate ways, and both were profitable. Some what different application, but helpful.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it interesting that neither of these two parties probably thought what was happening was the right thing...
You've got me thinking.
Kev
Lou, this might seem an odd question, but as I told you I am currently dealing with a matter of separation in our own church.
ReplyDeletePractically, what should I advise someone who is married to one holding onto heresy (such as those you contend or others)?
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Missy
Missy:
ReplyDelete"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder," (Matt. 19:6).
"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it," (Eph. 5:21-25).
Hi Missy,
ReplyDeleteI'm going to be praying for them.
May God bless you in your care, and caring.
Kev
Missy:
ReplyDeleteWere you referring to specific persons you know, or just asking a hypothetical?
LM
Thank you, Kev, those prayers will certainly be needed.
ReplyDeleteLou, as I mentioned, separation is an issue I am currently dealing with in my church. This is a specific person I am referring to. She has asked what will come of her if her husband is disfellowshipped. I don't believe I should separate from her because of his issues - but he has drawn a line that if he is out, she is out, too. And she certainly cannot separate from him. It's a very sad occurence. I'm not sure what to think.
Missy
Hi Missy,
ReplyDeleteDo you have a mentor in Christ? If so does their counsel set right with you?
How closely does your own congregation hold, at this point, to the belief that the ICC represents the only true disciples of Jesus? Do you think this married couple believes this, or not? And do they believe in the conditional preservation of the saints? There's potentially a lot of issues involved behind disfellowshipping, some may be inappropriate at least for her. Feel free to email me if you want....
Blessings,
Michele
Hi, Michele! Very detailed questions - and I hope my answers help make a scriptural answer clearer.
ReplyDeleteDo you have a mentor in Christ? If so does their counsel set right with you?
I have many mentors, and almost as many varieties of counsel. :) I have my opinion, and obviously not the one making the congregational decision, but am close friends with the wife and feel the need to come to my own conviction of this and fight for a righteous decision if needed.
How closely does your own congregation hold, at this point, to the belief that the ICC represents the only true disciples of Jesus?
They do not hold to this. This was a teaching of our leadership in the past that our "Berean" persistance to study brought us to reject, as almost all of our congregations have.
Do you think this married couple believes this, or not?
I believe the husband holds that one is only a true disciple of Christ if they believe as he does, and that our church is the closest to that. The wife is committed to submission, but does not hold the same belief.
And do they believe in the conditional preservation of the saints?
I am not sure what that means.
Missy
Michele/Missy:
ReplyDeleteWhat is the ICC?
Please explain.
LM
Lou,
ReplyDeleteThe denomination of churches I attend is the ICoC (Michele knows as ICC?) International Church of Christ - a 1970's division of the Church of Christ. There was a lot of controversy in the past of our church when founders and prior leadership led us into a strict legalism and harsh doctrine. A lot of innovative and scriptural things have been taught on living life as a disciple of Christ, but the harsh heirarchical leadership structure turned it into some ugly things. We have been in the midst of a shake up in the last 7 or so years drawing us out of an unspoken belief in Lordship Salvation, among other things. Marking and avoiding members had been a means of control for many years in our church - a much abused tool - but I have not experienced it in any of our congregations in the past 7 1/2 years. We are trying to be very careful to not go "there" again.
Michele can tell you, she had a bad experience in which a member of our church who was studying with her explained she was not saved if she had not been baptized. I don't know if it is related to her experience, but Michele is actually in a part of the country where many of the former leadership has settled in and continues to teach a very legalistic Lordship Salvation. A primary factor in that division was that any baptism outside of the ICoC was irrelevant - that a non-committed disciple was not saved.
We do hold to a belief in repentence, but we are still working out what that means. Most of us hold to it meaning changing one's mind/heart in such a way that one recognizes they are a sinner that can do nothing about it without Christ. A new life or rebirth begins in us and Christ works in us to free our hearts from slavery to sin.
I hope that helps, Lou. If you have any questions, let me know.
Missy
Missy:
ReplyDeleteFirst I want you to know that the Church of Christ teaches a false gospel by reason of its teaching the necessity of baptism for salvation.
I have been reading some ICC doctrinal views. It seems to me the ICC holds to the same teaching, which is: the necessity of baptism by immersion for spiritual salvation. You, therefore, are a member of false gospel teaching church and should quit it immediately, unless you believe baptism is necessary for salvation.
So, point blank: Do you agree with the ICC belief that, “apart from water baptism, one’s sins are not forgiven?”
LM
PS: There are more doctrinal issues I am reading about ICC, but I want to hone in on the baptism question.
Hi Missy,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"and feel the need to come to my own conviction of this and fight for a righteous decision if needed."
Good! I guess when I walked away I just felt I'd rather err on the side of bucking things... because I have to answer for myself before God.
You said:
"We have been in the midst of a shake up in the last 7 or so years drawing us out of an unspoken belief in Lordship Salvation, among other things."
Yeah... You're right, there is a great deal of commonality between lordship and ICOC. Both have a deep-set practice of looking at their life as evidence of having been saved or being worthy of God and the church. On the other hand, they don't believe in calvinism at all... officially.
You aren't sure what I meant above. Has there been any suggestion toward the husband that since he is not repenting and is going to leave this church, he will be going to hell? What is their method for dealing with sinners in the church? And... what is the nature of this guy's sin? Something clear in scripture, or insubordination?
Lou, you are on to the serious, unique situation theologically/relationally that Missy is in. I am sure that you will provide direct and efficient answers to her concerns.
ReplyDeleteIf either of you need some, I am willing to help.
Michele
Lou, I do not think I believe that "apart from water baptism, one's sins are not forgiven." Although there are many in my church that do believe it, I was not taught that. In February of 2001, I was baptized. I honestly have very little understanding why I did it, just that I did it to be like Jesus as it was my heart to do so - and have even less understanding of why Jesus did it other than to please His Father. But I know I entered salvation the week before that water baptism when I clearly believed that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the OT who died for the forgiveness of my sins and subsequently put my faith in the goodness and grace of God. Essentially, Lou, I was brought to Christ within the ICOC with the exact Gospel you teach.
ReplyDeleteLou, many of our churches have not had nor have adopted a doctrinal statement since 2005. We've had multiple splits and co-operative efforts in that time. I will not quit a church that is working, studying and openly discussing matters that have been brought out as possible errors - especially while I can testify to a spirit of teachability and humilty, as well as much repentence and change in teachings. I would greatly appreciate it if you would not presume to know what I or my congregation believes by a Time magazine article written in 1992. I am sure you can agree that spiritual maturity is not nor should be static.
I am a fool, not a Bible Scholar. When the discussions end and I have my full conviction from scripture, then I shall make that decision. It it not a decision to make without much consideration, prayer and patient long-suffering.
BTW - Keep in mind as you feel compelled study the history and teachings of my church, that much of what is written is prior to 2003 when the greatest shake-ups began and the church started to examine it's doctrine without the aid of prior leaders. Since then, we've been rather withdrawn and boring while most of our faithful teachers and ministers flocked to Bible Schools to get the exposure to biblical scholarship that had been reviled under the old regime.
Missy
Michele, I will answer your questions, and after I will be glad to discuss this with Lou, but I am afraid I can no longer discuss it with you. You have made what appears to be a tactical move based on a long held assumption that makes me distrust you. I am hopeful it was from a heart of concern and love.
ReplyDelete"Has there been any suggestion toward the husband that since he is not repenting and is going to leave this church, he will be going to hell?"
No!
"What is their method for dealing with sinners in the church?"
This is the first time I've experienced a possible situation of "church discipline." If a brother or sister has sinned against us or we are personally aware of a sin, we have been taught to talk to them, rebuke them, brings others in to help if necessary and then to leave them alone so we do not become embittered. Up until this point, it's never been more than counsel.
"And... what is the nature of this guy's sin? Something clear in scripture, or insubordination?"
I don't think this issue is either specifically one or the other. If it were clearly either, a path forward might be clearer. Out of the blue, he began seeking out and teaching to those that are divorced that they must never remarry or they will go to hell. 1) The church does not teach you will go to hell if you sin, and 2) has no formal instruction on remarriage other than disputable matters of advise. His method is to confront, bully and stalk the divorcees and those who have ALREADY remarried and is convinced he is instructed in scripture to do this until they repent - whatever that means in this situation. He refuses to study this out with any elders, scholars or even look at any extra-biblical study materials.
Lou, you have my email address if you prefer.
Missy
Missy... I was trying to see how your congregation has changed not having a doctrinal statement handy, I had read that each congregation is doing their own thing. It sounds like your church has gone a long way in just a few short years. I am sorry that I left such a negative effect. I'm also hungry to know more of the great revolution in this band of believers, because I still think often of them. I care for you, to me you have been a friend, and I do not wish you any ill.
ReplyDeleteBlessings, Michele
Missy:
ReplyDeleteI know nothing of a 1992 TIME magazine article. I did some independent reading about the ICC and it is a church that holds to teachings and practices that are antithetical to Scripture.
Glad to read you were born gain the Bible way, but if you are in a congregation whose leadership openly accepts or is tolerant of the view baptism is necessary for salvation, you must leave.
The Bible never teaches or condones complicity with gross doctrinal error. Spurgeon really had this down, I have to paraphrase, but he wrote that when it was obvious the fellowship would not or could not be recovered to biblical orthodoxy the only form of complete protest was separation from them.
LM
Lou, have you ever had to leave a congregation due to an issue like this?
ReplyDeleteMissy
Missy:
ReplyDeleteI am glad you asked, “Lou, have you ever had to leave a congregation due to an issue like this? ”
My answer is, “Yes, I have, twice- and I would not hesitate to do so again if warranted.” Quick explanation-
1) In 1981 my wife and moved to Texas, I had been saved only two years and did not know much. We were looking for a church and happened to drop in on a Church of Christ. I had no idea what their beliefs were. We went regularly for 3 months, once I realized they demanded water baptism for salvation, got that confirmed from the pastor, we resigned and went looking again.
2) The next try was a United Methodist church. Stayed for about 2 months. Ordaining women was a problem for my wife and I, much bigger now that I know what the Bible says about it. The major issue and our reason for leaving was the UMC tolerance for homosexuality.
We next landed at a Baptist church and found our home.
Let me share one more story. In Sept. 2004 an evangelist who I have known for 10 years to that time came to speak at of Christian school camp for 4 days. (I tell this story in my book) He then spoke in the Sunday morning service. In the Sunday service he preached a LS message and I was highly surprised and displeased. He had been deceived changed! Our pastor addressed this with him the next day and I the following day. He blew his top with me because I had it pegged and he did not like it. He has not, nor ever will be invited back.
Now, if our senior pastor had brushed this aside as if nothing serious had taken place, found it an acceptable interpretation of the Gospel, my family and I would have resigned. However, my pastor addressed it and I was asked to teach a series on the issue in several different special combined adult Sunday school class. I taught on the errors of Calvinism and Lordship Salvation.
My home church now has been my home church for 24 years. We have many good friends, but if the leadership goes off into error, and I cannot recover them, I will separate from them as the Scriptures COMMAND me to do.
I shared all tat to assure you that I know what you are going through. There is, only one way, to have God’s blessing and that is through trusting and obeying Him, even with the tough decisions and this is one of them for you. It is all too common for Christians to put their friendships and fellowships ahead of fidelity to God’s Word.
We are seeing this in the Crossless gospel debates. Some will become a New Evangelical in regard to their friendships, they will prefer unity at the expense of the clear biblical mandates. Then, guess what happens; the one who refused to obey God begins to embrace what they should have separate from. Please, do not make that mistake.
We must ALWAYS give the Lord the benefit of the doubt and obey his mandated courses of action for every area of our life. There is only one option when confronted with the teaching of gross error on a major doctrine, or complicity with that error, Romans 16:17-18; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14-15.
LM
PS: May I suggest you read an article I posted some time ago-
Unity at the Price of Truth is Treason!
Thank you Lou for sharing those situations with me. It reassures me that you know the difficulty of separation firsthand.
ReplyDeleteIf this is the choice I face, then the question I originally posed becomes far more personal, so I will rephrase it in such a way to illustrate how personal:
Lou, if your wife were to one day begin to believe in the necessity of baptism for salvation, and you were unable to persuade her differently, what would you do?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMissy:
ReplyDeleteAs for the spouse situation, when I said, “till death do us part,” I meant it.
I want you to focus on your church situation, they are wrong and if you believe their view on baptism for salvation is wrong, you must resign if you are going to be obedient to the Lord. Where does your first loyalty lie; to God or your fellowship at the ICC?
Lou
PS: Did you read the article I linked you to?
Lou, then you would agree that these passages regarding separation must be applied selectively? I had not anticipated that conclusion from you. My further response will take a little time and prayer if you can please be patient?
ReplyDeleteMissy
Oh, and yes, I did read the article. Thanks, Lou.
ReplyDeleteMissy
Missy:
ReplyDeleteI am giving benefit of the doubt here at the beginning of this comment.
Are you trying to tie separation from a body of believers at a local church and separation from a spouse together? I think that is what you just attempted and I am basing my following comments on that assumption.
You appear to have little or no understanding that there are biblical principles that apply to personal and/or ecclesiastical separation.
Furthermore, the Bible never contradicts itself.
You seem to be trying to tie the marriage relationship with separation issues. The Bible forbids divorce; it is NEVER right. The doctrinal problems you are having with the ICC are clear, obvious and necessitate separation from that body of believers, NOT your husband, if that that is what you are getting at.
Now, a one time and final warning do not play “GOTCHA” with me!
It seems you are operating from a lack of biblical knowledge or confusion at best on biblical separation. If you want biblical answers I will give them, but if you are going to try any more of this “gotcha” non-sense never post here again.
I will not tolerate any form of gamesmanship!
LM
Lou, I don't play games. I am not interested in gotcha. No, I do not understand how or what principles are applied to ANY separation let alone between personal/ecclesiastical. I should have posted my very lengthy first draft that might have illustrated my relief at your response and went further into describing my confusion. But it got overly emotional so I just cut to the chase after going back to read other comments in the thread.
ReplyDeleteI am having incredible difficulty reading Romans 16 and 2 Thess and seeing what you see. You are right, I am ignorant. I'm not stupid, but definitely ignorant.
However, Lou, I am defintely not a child, either. You may always give me proper Christian rebuke - admonish me with scripture and I will dig in. But I am tired of the commands and forbidding. I accept my commands from the Word and the Word alone. I will today and ever more - even if I find a point where I agree with you 100% - question and reproof anything you advise.
If you are not comfortable with that, then yes, you should stop tolerating me, but not for any false sense of gamemanshp.
Scripture is not a game.
So if we are not playing here, explain the scriptural difference in applying this to personal vs. ecclesiastical relationships (and you might be fairly certain that for me these relationships are almost entirely with the same individuals).
Missy
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMissy:
ReplyDeleteWater baptism for salvation and forgiveness of sin is antithetical to Scripture and the Gospel. This teaching is a serious departure from the plain teaching of Scripture. Your ICC takes that position and that necessitates separation from them, unless you are in agreement with that teaching.
If you are unwilling to follow the biblical mandates then I have no further advice for you.
From this point I would prefer you go to the Scriptures and let them speak for themselves.
If you are having some issues with your spouse and need counsel- you and your spouse should seek out personal, private counsel from a pastor who could help you folks.
That said, I want you to move on. I am no longer interested in having these conversations with you.
LM
Thank you for the time you did give, Lou. It was very generous. I will continue to study these things you have offered up.
ReplyDeleteMissy
Lou, if you don't mind, I would like to leave a public apology to Michele in this thread for my over-sensitive reaction. It was harsh and uncalled for. I have apologized to her privately, but I would like to present it publicly.
ReplyDeleteI would also like to apologize to you, Lou, if my prior admonishment was harsh. I did not intend to present a gotcha, but upon review I was rather smug. Thank you for the patience you offered.
Missy
Missy:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the note above to Michele and I, but please consider that comment your last at my blog.
LM
Thanks Missy, for giving me a second chance. You're awesome!
ReplyDeleteMichele