The FBFI Annual Fellowship is in its second day. Last night the *keynote speaker was Dr. Chuck Phelps. His message title was, “Living in the Grip of the Glorious Gospel.”I want to address just one aspect of Dr. Phelps’s message, which is his discussion of the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel. Within his message he quoted a portion from Dr. John MacArthur’s Hard to Believe. This book is one of five major apologetics by John MacArthur on his Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel.
“Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.”
The selection above is a revised version of the original paragraph that appears in MacArthur’s Hard to Believe, p. 93. The original appeared as follows (see bold for the edited portion):“Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God's Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scriptures; it’s the fruit of actions not intentionsThere’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny.”That passage, in either form, is one of the most controversial, **among many, coming from Dr. MacArthur since his release of the original edition of The Gospel According to Jesus. It was Phil Johnson (MacArthur’s senior editor) who notd the original manuscript, the paragraph in question, from Hard to Believe was altered by an editor at the publisher. Phil has posted a revision, which I was under the impression Dr. Phelps had cited. Several persons have indicated that it was the original version that Dr. Phelps cited in his message.
To date I am not aware of any instance in which Dr. MacArthur has personally and publicly edited, explained or eliminated the original paragraph from Hard to Believe. This is significant! (If anyone can document MacArthur personally retracting the paragraph from Hard to Believe, please post that link in the thread below.)
All of the friction in recent weeks in the IFB camp is of course troublesome. There has been talk of a split over Calvinism or possibly the ***“worldliness” of the so-called “conservative” evangelicals, which despite those trends many of our Reformed brethren are growing increasingly fond of close fellowship with the evangelicals. These are important discussions, but for some men these things are not clear issues that necessitate separation. IMO, those are not the clear fault lines for an ****Acts 15:39 type of parting of the ways between men in the IFB community and/or the FBF, but Lordship Salvation is!
Reasonable men can get along over differences of opinion over Reformed theology. Many men who reject Calvinism have cordial personal friendships with IFB men who are Calvinistic in their theology. There is the desire to work in cooperative efforts and I understand that desire. It is, however, antithetical to the Scriptures to call for unity in any fellowship at the expense of compromise with Lordship’s message, which has changed the terms of the Gospel. Dr. Ernest Pickering wrote:How can there be unity within a fellowship when two polar opposite interpretations of the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ are accepted as legitimate?
“John MacArthur is a sincere servant of the Lord, of that we have no doubt.... We believe in his advocacy of the so-called lordship salvation he is wrong. He desperately desires to see holiness, lasting fruit, and continuing faithfulness in the lives of Christian people. This reviewer and we believe all sincere church leaders desire the same.... But the remedy for this condition is not found in changing the terms of the gospel.” (Lordship Salvation: An Examination of John MacArthur’s Book, The Gospel According to Jesus.)If a brother in Christ believes eternal salvation is received through faith plus commitment of life he has fallen into the trap of Lordship Salvation’s man-centered, works based message that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). We need to prayerfully exhort and convince those men to reconsider their advocacy of Lordship Salvation and to repent of it.
If there is to be fracture in Fundamentalism the fault line is IMO Lordship Salvation.
LM
PS: Later today I am posting an article in regard to Thursday’s Q & A Symposium titled, “Let’s Discuss Conservative Evangelicalism.”
*The other slated keynote speaker, Evangelist Will Galkin, was unable to attend due to a family illness.
**Additional controversial quotes from MacArthur include:
“Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (TGATJ, p. 78)***A an article of supreme importance exposing the trend of worldliness among “conservative” evangelicals was published by Dr. Peter Masters. See, The Merger of Calvinism With Worldliness (An alarmed assessment by Dr. Masters of the ‘new Calvinism’ promoted among young people in the USA from Sword & Trowel 2009, No. 1)
“And he needed to be willing to submit to the Lord Jesus, even if it meant he had to give up all his earthly possessions. He might not ask, but the requirement for eternal life is the willingness to give it all up if he does.” (Hard to Believe, p. 9.)
“Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to a cross. . . . It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith.” (TGATJ, p. 140).
“One of the most comprehensive invitations to salvation in all the epistles comes in James 4:7-10... The invitation in 4:7-10 is directed at those who are not saved...” (From the 20th Anniversary edition of TGATJ (p. 250). See, Summary of Lordship Salvation From a Single Page
****See- Is it Sharp Nuff’ Yet?
Lou,
ReplyDeleteWhat did Phelps say about the quote? Did he quote it favorably or did he criticize it?
One thing about that particular quote- and the thing I have the greatest amount of frustration over- it completely skips trust. He goes from some notion of merely reciting words (where does he get that from? Who says salvation comes from reciting words?) to the fruit of saving faith, completely disregarding how one is actually saved. It's like he's pitting a lesser form of working (reciting words) to a greater form of working (paring words with actions) without actually saying that is what he is doing. I don't want to say he is hiding the trust aspect of salvation under the carpet and hoping no one will notice, but it is conspicuously absent. Where is it? He just seems to talk around it. And why does he think one can have a meaningful discussion of the gospel without it? If he does not want people to think he advocates a works based salvation, what does he want us to think he is saying?
And, incidentally, can anyone who has read the book (Hard to Believe, I have not read it) tell me if JM talks about the cross of Christ at all and, if so, what place he gives it in the gospel message? Does he bring the sinner directly to the cross of Christ or must the sinner get there indirectly (I hope at least the sinner is to get there eventually at least!)? Does he deal with the issue of trusting Christ crucified for salvation? Quotes would be good, if possible. Thanks awfully.
JanH
Jan:
ReplyDeleteThrough personal discussions I know that Dr. Phelps rejects Lordship Salvation. He was not favorable toward the paragraph from Hard to Believe.
As for whether or not MacArthur in Hard to Believe "tells of the cross of Christ" I have to for the moment defer. It has been a long time since I read it and I am away from my copy to review it.
Thanks for asking, maybe someone can cite a specific passage from HtB that includes belief in the crosswork of Christ FOR salvation.
Lou
What did Phelps say about the quote?
ReplyDeleteInquiring minds and all that...
JanH
Jan:
ReplyDeleteDr. Phelps was speaking of how Lordship Salvation (LS) is an over-reaction to the extremes of Easy-Believism. Extremes like that of the Grace Evangelical Society’s Crossless Gospel (CG) heresy. Sometimes I refer to LS and the CG as being on the far opposite ends end of the theological pendulum swing. He was making that distinction.
So, the quote from JM’s Hard to Believe was given to demonstrate what you find at one of the extreme ends of that pendulum swing, which is Lordship Salvation. I believe he likened that quote to what you would hear coming from the Roman Catholic Church.
Hope that helps.
Lou
I believe he likened that quote to what you would hear coming from the Roman Catholic Church.
ReplyDeleteWow!
JanH
I see some problems with the quote taken directly from the book, but I fail to see anything technically wrong with the version of the quote communicated via Phelps. I'm not trying to defend MacArthur's theology, just sincerely wanting to educate myself on what specifically about that quote should have jumped out as a "red flag" for me?
ReplyDeletePhelps quoted the unedited version of the paragraph--I just listened to it again. I don't think he would have a problem with the revised version...
ReplyDeleteMatthew Richards
Joshua:
ReplyDeleteI am a little late in gettng back to you, sorry.
In both versions of the controversial Hard to Believe paragraph it opens with, “Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian.” Right? So, MacArthur is speaking of what is required of the lost to BECOME a Christian.
And he says in the revised paragraph, “…salvation for sinner’s cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing.” And what is that cost, “to become a Christian?” MacArthur tells us, “behavior.”
I never claim MacArthur says the lost must behave to become a Christian, but he does condition salvation, the reception of eternal life, on the sinner’s upfront promise to behave as a mature disciple of Christ. With Lordship Salvation the key to eternal life is behavior, NOT believing. That is MacArthur’s (LS) man centered, non-saving, WORKS based salvation, a message that frustrates “grace” (Ga. 2:21).
Now, in the next comment I’ll list the additional examples that verify MacArthur is not preaching “justification by faith” alone. Clearly he has added a commitment to works for the reception of eternal life.
LM
All quotes below are from Dr. John MacArthur as he defines his interpretation of the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel.
ReplyDelete“Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (TGATJ, p. 78).
“He (Jesus) wants disciples willing to forsake everything. This calls for full-scale self denial-to the point of willingness to die for His sake if necessary. That is the kind of response the Lord Jesus called for: wholehearted commitment. A desire for Him at any cost. Unconditional surrender. A full exchange of self for the Savior.” (TGATJ [Revised & Expanded Edition], pp. 226, 148.)
“And he needed to be willing to submit to the Lord Jesus, even if it meant he had to give up all his earthly possessions. He might not ask, but the requirement for eternal life is the willingness to give it all up if he does.” (Hard to Believe, p. 9.)
“Thus in a sense we pay the ultimate price for salvation when our sinful self is nailed to a cross. . . . It is an exchange of all that we are for all that Christ is. And it denotes implicit obedience, full surrender to the lordship of Christ. Nothing less can qualify as saving faith.” (TGATJ, p. 140).
“One of the most comprehensive invitations to salvation in all the epistles comes in James 4:7-10... The invitation in 4:7-10 is directed at those who are not saved...” (From the 20th Anniversary edition of TGATJ (p. 250).
In his revised and expanded version of The Gospel According to Jesus John MacArthur uses the term “saving faith” through this section (page 147). He is clearly referring to the salvation experience. The word “exchange” is used twice in the two sections (pp. 147-148), and also in connection with his definition of what constitutes “saving faith.”
“That is the kind of response the Lord Jesus called for: wholehearted commitment. A desire for him at any cost. Unconditional surrender. A full exchange of self for the Savior. It is the only response that will open the gates of the kingdom. Seen through the eyes of this world, it is as high a price as anyone can pay. But from a kingdom perspective, it is really no sacrifice at all.”
Following is another quotation from the chapter entitled, “The Cost of Discipleship” in MacArthur’s The Gospel According to Jesus: [Revised & Expanded Edition], pp. 221, 226.
“Let me say again unequivocally that Jesus’ summons to deny self and follow him was an invitation to salvation, not . . . a second step of faith following salvation. . . . Those who are not willing to lose their lives for Christ are not worthy of Him. . . . He wants disciples willing to forsake everything. This calls for full-scale self-denial—even willingness to die for His sake if necessary.” (bold added)
Matthew:
ReplyDeleteI am OK with being wrong and being graciously helped to correct a mistake. But if I was wrong then I think the SI liveblogger is to. I believe they may also have attributed the revised version from HtB to Phelps's message as well.
Do you plan to post to them (at SI) the kind of scornful remarks that you did about me at another blog?
LM
To All:
ReplyDeleteToday I have been informed that I am in error by attributing to Dr. Phelps that he cited the revised version of HtB's page 93 at the FBFI fellowship.
I have not been able to listen to the audio today, but with three men confirming for me Dr. Phelps cited the original- I apologize for the error in attribution and will make the correction in the main article immediately.
At my earliest convenience I will listen to the audio to confirm personally.
LM
Confirming that beginning at 12:15 of the audio Dr. Phelps does quote from the original version of page 93 from Hard to Believe.
ReplyDeleteLM
thank you for correcting yourself--IMHO, this is very refreshing to see in IFB circles.
ReplyDeleteMatthew Richards
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDear Matthew:
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate that. If you get to know me you will find that I will make mistakes, but I have never to my knowledge refused to make corrections, confess errors and make them right to the best of my ability.
I have a very tender conscience and I can’t sleep at night with unresolved issues. Take a look at the time I was making those corrections and you’ll see what I mean (1:36am). I worked over 12 hours yesterday, got home at 10:30pm, did my research, listened to the Phelps message and set out to make the corrections.
I feel much better this morning, right with the Lord and gratified that you encouraged me with that comment.
God bless you,
Lou
PS: FWIW, I sent all of the documentation from Phil Johnson on the Hard to Believe, p. 93 fiasco to Dr. Phelps for his review with some commentary from me.
@Lou - Thanks very much for the additional context. The unedited version of the quote is pretty horrifying. However, I was pretty sympathetic to the edited version. I can see your point, if we assume that when it says "easy to become a Christian" it means "easy to become saved". Clearly, it doesn't take any effort or good works on our part to become saved. I was reading it as meaning "easy to be or become a disciple of Christ".
ReplyDeleteGiven the additional citations you provided, it's safe to assume that your interpretation is what the author intended.
Hi Joshua:
ReplyDelete“Given the additional citations you provided, it’s safe to assume that your interpretation is what the author intended.”
This is why I tell folks to read with discernment. It is there when you take the time to read carefully. Most folks figure, “John MacArthur, it must be OK.” So, they plow through and don’t get the context.
Yesterday, at a LS friendly blog, I posted the same thing to Phil Johnson (JM’s senior editor). Phil won’t touch it because the soft underbelly of Lordship’s promise to perform message is laid bare.
I have numerous articles on LS at this blog. I want to link you and all my guests to two additional articles I think are very revealing. Please see…
John MacArthur’s Mandatory Performance Guidelines for “Lordship” Salvation
George Zeller’s Can God Given Faith Be Defective?
Lou
@Lou -- Thanks for those. I find some of the MacArthur quotes to be very sneaky. The quotes in the Zeller link are quite clear, and easy to see the error, but the "mandatory performance guidelines" post was trickier.
ReplyDeleteI note that the rebuttal to MacArthur in *that* post was by a guy from "Free Grace". Is that related to GES who were sneakily preaching crossless gospel?
The reason I think that MacArthur quote is sneaky is because it is 99% agreeable. I believe that repentance is necessary for salvation (please correct me if I am wrong; I am obviously an amateur), and repentance is not a simple abstract intellectual exercise. It seems that he was setting up a straw man to attack, since most Christians would agree that faith is not a simple abstract intellectual exercise or recitation of a creed.
In that post, you highlighted "willful obedience in turning from sin", and that is a part that disturbed me as well. Isn't repentance about giving up the will? It seems to me that this is the error; where he makes it sounds as if repentance (and thus salvation) is something that one accomplishes through an act of willpower. Am I understanding correctly?
Joshua:
ReplyDeleteYou are seeing much of this correctly.
Much of what JM writes in his Lordship books is sound. That is why the error is hard to detect unless you read slowly and carefully. I heartily agree with much of what JM writes in regard to what the natural results should be for the genuinely born again Christian. It is when he is talking about how the lost man becomes a Christian the red flags go up.
What one must realize as he reads JM and other LS men they essentially see the doctrines of salvation and discipleship as one and the same. I have a major chapter in my book dedicated to that issue. I have an article here that addresses that issue. See- John MacArthur’s Discipleship Gospel for that abbreviated study.
Not all in the Free Grace community are aligned with the Crossless gospel heresy of the Grace Evangelical Society (GES). Actually the GES is a fast shrinking cell of reductionist extremists. There are scores of good men in the FG camp who reject LS and the Crossless gospel. Several of them I interact with are Calvinistic to varying degrees, but they realize the LS message is works and corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3).
As for repentance: I don’t have time for much now. Please read: How Does the Lordship Advocate Define Repentance for some ground work.
Keep the questions and commentary coming. Be sure to share what you are learning about LS with people in your sphere of influence. Encourage them to read some of the many article here if you think it will help them
It is a genuine tragedy to see an unsuspecting believer fall into the trap of Lordship Salvation because they did not recognize the error early on.
Lou
Salvation begins (from the human standpoint) with a person’s willful obedience in turning from sin to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't the phrase "salvation begins" imply that salvation is a process and, therefore, not a finished work? Fred Chay had quoted MacArthur as saying that salvation is not a past event but a present reality. Aside from the obvious impossibility of having a present with no past, would this not also imply that salvation is not a finished work? Is this what MacArthur means us to infer from saying "salvation begins"? I would be more likely to say that salvation occurs at a give point (trusting Christ crucified).
Is there a legitimate way to use the phrase "salvation begins"?
JanH
Jan:
ReplyDeleteYou raise a very valid and important point. Later today, I'd like to expand on it with you.
Thanks,
Lou
Is there a legitimate way to use the phrase "salvation begins"?
ReplyDelete@Jan - that's a very strong point; thanks for that insight.
Christ's death has already earned our salvation; full stop. To act as if our own self-sacrifice has anything to do with it is to depose Christ and despise His sacrifice. I suppose this is why we need to be so careful.
Of course, new believers (and hopefully old) hunger and thirst after righteousness. To the extent that we do so from a desire to be more like Christ, this seems good. But is it wrong (or dangerous, etc.) to be motivated by a desire to not lose one's salvation? Wouldn't that lead to the belief that "Christ gave me salvation, but I hung onto it through my own efforts"?
It seems that Paul forbade sexual immorality "because you are the body of Christ, and would Christ lie with a prostitute?", not because "if you do, you'll lose your salvation". Or am I just confusing myself?
Hi Joshua-
ReplyDeleteYou know, I hadn't thought of the issue in the terms of losing one's salvation as you put it:
But is it wrong (or dangerous, etc.) to be motivated by a desire to not lose one's salvation? Wouldn't that lead to the belief that "Christ gave me salvation, but I hung onto it through my own efforts"?
The reason I didn't think of it like that is because I know the MacArthur crowd would say that a salvation begun will be completed, so they wouldn't consider it possible for one to lose one's salvation if one had it to begin with. I would agree with them on that. What I take issue with (assuming I am actually on to something and am not "misreading the tea leaves") is that they would appear to consider that even though the work is guaranteed to be completed, it is not completed now. In other words, they deny the importance of the believer's positional standing in Christ. In spite of God telling us plainly in Colossians 2:10 that we ARE complete in Christ and just as plainly in Romans 8:30 that whom He justified, these he also glorifIED, (past tense, accomplished work) the implication remains in the teaching of these men that because the outworking of our sanctification is not complete, our salvation is not complete either. The fact that we will be saved/complete not withstanding. (I don't know what they do with the obviously position based wording in Romans 8:30.)
It has been observed that TULIP Calvinists cannot be distinguished from Arminians who hold to conditional security when they are discussing Perseverance of the saints. Lawrence Vance made this observation in his book The Other Side of Calvinism (P. 596):
"So the only perceivable difference between a Calvinist and an Arminian when it comes to assurance is that the Arminian requires holiness to prove salvation while the Calvinist demands holiness to demonstrate election, which then substantiates salvation."
For that reason, even though I wasn't viewing it from that perspective, I think your observation is valid.
My position on the issue is that salvation is complete the moment one trusts in Christ's finished work on the cross to save him. What is a process is the outworking of that salvation in the life and character of the saved person. Once saved, the Holy Spirit begins the work of conforming us into the image of the One in Whom we have been placed. We do not become more saved (more in Christ) as we become more sanctified (More like Christ). I don't believe MacArthur, et al. would say that we do either, but I don't know how they would avoid that when they speak of salvation as having a beginning, thus implying it is an on going process, and refusing to rest a present reality on a past event.
I do really want to know whether there is a legitimate use of the phrase "salvation begins." I am not aware of one but would like to know if there is one.
JanH
My position on the issue is that salvation is complete the moment one trusts in Christ's finished work on the cross to save him. What is a process is the outworking of that salvation in the life and character of the saved person. Once saved, the Holy Spirit begins the work of conforming us into the image of the One in Whom we have been placed. We do not become more saved (more in Christ) as we become more sanctified (More like Christ). I don't believe MacArthur, et al. would say that we do either, but I don't know how they would avoid that when they speak of salvation as having a beginning, thus implying it is an on going process, and refusing to rest a present reality on a past event.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is also what I believe, and I think this was the point Lou was making with the statement:
What one must realize as he reads JM and other LS men they essentially see the doctrines of salvation and discipleship as one and the same.
I don't know if MacArthur would agree with that assessment. The writings cited here certainly make it appear that way, but the point I take away is that I myself should avoid muddling the two together.
The Vance quote is quite interesting. That is exactly my frustration with a subset of the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate -- on some matters, it seems that the camps are engaged in abstract semantic quibbling that has no practical consequence.
but the point I take away is that I myself should avoid muddling the two together.
ReplyDeleteYes. I feel the same. Salvation and discipleship should not be treated as synonyms.
JanH
Jan/Joshua:
ReplyDeleteI am enjoying reading your interaction, both well stated. I will help others to be abe to better recognize the errors of LS, that are often not easily detected.
"Salvation and discipleship should not be treated as synonyms."
Right! And this is where LS errs grievously.
LM
Really Lou, it is just this sort of thing that is so troubling (I am still on the "salvation begins" issue). The more I think about it the more troubling I find it. There are exactly 2 options that any given individual has: he is either in the first Adam and under God's wrath or he is in the Last Adam and thereby accepted. Since Christ's work is accomplished and He is seated at the Father's right hand, it is impossible to be both in Him and in process of being saved at the same time. But one is not in the process of being saved if one is still in the first Adam and under God's wrath either. It is simply not a Biblical option to speak of salvation beginning anywhere.
ReplyDeleteJanH
@Jan - When I first read that, I read an implicit "Salvation begins (and ends)". However, it seems clear from the context that he meant to say "Salvation begins (and progresses)". In fact, it appears that MacArthur is well-known for saying only the first part:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bing.com/search?q=%22salvation+begins%22+macarthur&form=QBRE
Now, even if it were to say "Salvation begins and ends", it would be imprecise at best, but at least this seems to be a common formulation in many churches' statements of doctrine at churches who do not believe that works have any part in salvation:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=%22salvation+begins%22+faith+Christ&first=11&FORM=PORE
Some of those churches say only "salvation begins", but others say "salvation begins and ends", which seems more orthodox. Of course, I prefer the phrasing "Salvation was won at the cross", but am not sure if that is just semantic quibbling as opposed to "salvation begins and ends".
The people who say "salvation begins and ends" appear to be arminian-leaning in my very unscientific anecdotal survey of doctrine statements.
Hmm, after a bit more research, here is one explanation from MacArthur:
ReplyDeleteNotice God's part in salvation begins with election and ends in glory. In between, every aspect of the redemptive process is God's work, not the sinner's. God will neither terminate the process nor omit any aspect of it.
from http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A130
So I suppose he would argue that salvation proceeds deterministically and irreversibly once "started", based on predestination, so that "begin" is tautological equivalence with "begins and ends". (And also that it really means "began", since he would say that the election occurred before the creation of the earth). So presumably he really means to say "salvation began"? I dunno..
Jan/Joshua:
ReplyDeleteI'll toss this in.
Salvation (justification, being born again) occurs in a moment of time, sanctification (growing in grace, 2 Peter 3:18) is a process that begins once saved.
The way I keep my thinking and understanding of LS straight is to always remember that MacArthur and LS advocates essentially treat salvation and discipleship as one and the same. Here is an excerpt from a chapter in my book I wrote titled, Salvation & Discipleship: Is There a Biblical Difference?
“Those who hold to Lordship Salvation blur the biblical distinction between salvation and discipleship by interpreting the following passages as though they are the blue print of God’s plan for salvation- Luke 9:23-24; Luke 14:26-27, 33; Mark 8:34.”
“Salvation and discipleship are two separate and distinct issues. Salvation is the gift of God to an undeserving Hell-bound sinner. Discipleship is what ought to flow from the man or woman who through the shed blood of Jesus Christ has been redeemed from sin, death and Hell. Confusing the cost of discipleship for the believer with the gospel of grace through faith is one of the gross errors of Lordship Salvation.”
Lou
Notice God's part in salvation begins with election and ends in glory. In between, every aspect of the redemptive process is God's work, not the sinner's. God will neither terminate the process nor omit any aspect of it.
ReplyDeleteSo here we have him admitting that salvation is a process twice. It is a process that has a beginning (election) and an ending (glory). Worse, he calls it a process of redemption. How do you call salvation a redemptive process when the Redeemer is finished with His redeeming work and is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven? Christ is not “in process.” Therefore, redemption ITSELF is not in process, guaranteed result or not. It is the experiential outworking of the FINISHED redemption applied to the believer IN FULL upon believing that is in process. But this is categorically NOT what MacArthur said. He said the redemption ITSELF is unfinished until glory. The reason I think MacArthur gets away with framing the issue this way is because he is allowed to confuse the unfinished outworking with the finished work applied to the believer upon believing. He has blurred the lines by saying that what has been started will be finished, so it seems less objectionable. He would have been tarred and feathered long ago if he said the process could be interrupted and ended short of final glory for the believer somewhere along the line. But since the saved person ends up in the same place, it is seen as merely a matter of semantics. No use quibbling over words, after all. It is NOT a matter of semantics, though. It is a denial that the saved man IS saved TODAY. And when the discipleship/experiential sanctification aspect is factored in, it makes our salvation ITSELF to be based, at least in part on works in addition to Christ's death. He gets away with this by saying it is all God's work and not our own. But these works do not in any way, shape, or form contribute to our BEING/BECOMING saved. SALVATION is not based on the sort of works he is speaking of when he speaks of discipleship, etc. at all. It is based on a Person Who is our Righteousness (1 Cor 1:30) and His one righteous act, which is His death on the cross (Romans 5:18). The works we do (that God does in us, he is right about that) are the results of our complete salvation, not ingredients of salvation that complete a process.
It is the fact that he says things the way he does that makes it so easy for people to think they are getting sound teaching. Little nuances like "process" are comfortably couched inside words like "begins" and "ends" and so they go unhindered into the mind and do their dirty work unnoticed. Do not the words "begin" and "end" give natural rise to the concept expressed in the word "process"? So we read on unsurprised and unoffended at the word "process" because it quite naturally belongs in a sentence speaking of "beginning" and "ending". Further, we may assume him to mean the process of outworking and not the salvation itself when he says "process", even though he says SALVATION begins... Subtle but effective.
JanH
He has blurred the lines by saying that what has been started will be finished, so it seems less objectionable.
ReplyDeleteYes, exactly.
To be honest, I think that such sophistry is inevitable for people who get too preoccupied with strict predestination.
Jan, Joshua, All:
ReplyDeleteThis afternoon in the thread of my article John MacArthur's Discipleship Gospel I received an encouraging comment and question from a first time visitor named Tom.
Tom's comment/question is here- my reply followed, which I'd like to insert here for its relevance to what we are discussing.
LM
Hello Tom:
You said/asked, “LM said...>>Discipleship comes at a cost, salvation does not!<<
I believe this comment sums up all that you were saying on the subject of Lordship Salvation. for until I read the above, the subject was very fuzzy to me.
However, what is not clear to me is the distinction, if one exists, between discipleship and salvation. It would also be helpful to me, if you could say what is the cost of discipleship, and who pays the bill?”
If I can in summary form, I’d like to respond to your good question as follows.
The lost are called to come TO Him FOR Salvation. Once born again, the new believer is commanded to Follow AFTER Him in Discipleship.
The cost of discipleship for the believer is whatever the Lord calls on him to do. If you read Romans 12:1-2 and agree to do what is there, “present your body…,” the Lord will take you up on that, get busy in your life and thereby you will learn the cost of discipleship as He reveals it to you.
I remember in October 1986 committing my life to whatever Rom. 12:1-2 had for me. I remember praying and telling the Lord, “I don’t care what it is, where it takes me or what the cost; if You call me to do something, I’ll do it!” And I meant it, still do!
The Lord took me up on that commitment. I have never regretted anything He has had for me since then.
“Who Pays the Bill?” Jesus Paid it All, but we get the privilege and opportunity to invest our lives in service to Him for the glory of God.
I hope this helps.
LM