Dear Guests of IDOTG:I am reading a new multi-part on line series by *Dr. Dave Doran. It is titled The Gospel and Separation and appears at Dr. Doran’s personal blog, Glory & Grace. The series is prefaced by two introductory articles, but begins in earnest with The Gospel and Separation I and to date has four installments.
The following four excerpts from Part 3 are IMO of particular interest.
“Preaching the gospel also means announcing His exaltation, Lordship, and coming Kingdom (Acts 2:36; 2 Cor 4:5; Acts 8:12; cf. 14:22).”There are several portions I highlighted for consideration, but there is one I would like to focus on for this article, which is: “final salvation, through Him?” What is “final salvation?” It has a man-made ring to it, which I first read in John Piper’s What Jesus Demands From the World, (p. 160).
“Gospel preaching offers the promise of final salvation through Him (Acts 13:38-39; cf. 1 Ths 1:10 ‘to wait for His Son from heaven…who rescues us from the wrath to come’).”
“Any doctrinal threat to the person and work of Jesus Christ cuts at the heart of biblical Christianity. Because it attacks a fundamental of the faith, the gospel is at stake. Paul warned about people who might preach ‘another Jesus’ than the one that Paul had preached (2 Cor 11:4). The only Jesus who saves is the one revealed to us in the Scriptures. Any so-called gospel that rejects or distorts what the Scriptures teach about Jesus Christ is no gospel at all.”
“This means there is no ‘gospel lite’—either you have the biblical gospel in its fullness or you don’t have the gospel at all.”
“There is no doubt that Jesus saw a measure of real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation.”Is this the “final salvation” Dr. Doran speaks of; “...lived-out obedience to the will of God?” Could that be the ground Dr. Doran is staking out as the Gospel, the saving message? What is UNfinal about salvation, receiving the gift of eternal life, once a man is born again by grace through faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9)?
One would expect the genuine believer in Christ to “grow in the grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Lord Jesus Christ,” (2 Peter 3:18). What, however, is left for him to do for “final salvation?” It is my hope and prayer that as his series continues Dr. Doran will clarify his meaning and repudiate the works based salvation such as Piper articulates above. I hope he will stake out the biblical high-ground for the Gospel of grace.
If, on the other hand, Brother Doran is going to drive a stake in the ground for the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel, then by all means I trust he won’t be vague about it. If he is going to make acceptance of the Lordship gospel the test for fellowship, I trust he won’t begin by making the mistake of equating the reductionist Crossless Gospel heresy of Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin and GES as the view of every non-Lordship Salvation person. Separation from the GES men has long since taken place.
If Dave Doran believes Lordship Salvation is the Gospel, then in his series I am hopeful he will say so in unvarnished terms. If he believes submission to the Lordship of Christ is necessary for the reception of the gift of eternal life then may he say so. If Doran, like Piper, considers “…real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation,” then I am hopeful he will say so in such a way there is no mistake about it or repudiate Piper’s statement.IMO, the true crux of the Gospel controversy in the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) community is over the requirement to become a Christian, i.e. how to be born again, much more so than what should be the natural result of a genuine conversion.
“The message of faith only and the message of faith plus commitment of life cannot both be the gospel; therefore, one of them is a false gospel and comes under the curse of perverting the gospel or preaching another gospel (Gal. 1:6-9), and this is a very serious matter.” (Dr. Charles Ryrie: Balancing the Christian Life, p. 170.)If we come to find Dave Doran believes Lordship Salvation is the Gospel will he call for “separation” from Independent Fundamental Baptists who reject the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel?
It is no secret that among the Calvinists in IFB circles there is a growing affinity for closing ranks with the so-called “conservative” evangelicalism- its stars and fellowships. IFB men who are Calvinistic in their theology have increasingly moved toward and are embracing the “conservative” evangelicals. They are primarily rallying around a common bond, which is Calvinism and Lordship Salvation. Is it possible Dave Doran’s series signals the time has come when Reformed IFB men will make the leap; separate from IFB men who reject Calvinistic soteriology and/or Lordship Salvation and fully embrace the “conservative” evangelicals?
Brother Doran’s series The Gospel & Separation is not yet complete. We will continue to read the series with great interest to see how he defines his terms makes the application and what impact, if any, the series will have on the IFB community.
LM
*David M. Doran, D.Min. is Senior Pastor of Inter-City Baptist Church; President, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary; Professor of Pastoral Theology.
UPDATE (10/29/09):
In the thread below one guest remarked, “I do think a direct question to Dr. Doran would result in a clarification.” My reply follows.
That would be the ideal, but Dr. Doran does not allow for questions or comments at his blog where his series appears. Yesterday, however, Dr. Doran posted a new article at his blog. It is his reaction to the legitimate questions he has read here raised by myself and select others.
When we are going to discuss the Gospel we need to be biblically precise in our terms. I am gratified Dr. Doran has felt the need to apply more biblical precision to some of his statements from Part 3 of his series, which I quote…above. Later I will have some reaction, most likely in a new main page article, to the clarifying article by Dr. Doran.
Please continue to- The Gospel & Separation: Interim Discussion and Primer for the Balance
Agreed, will be interesting to watch. I fully assumed that the phrase "final salvation" was just semantic sloppiness, and not really a betrayal of theological sloppiness. But I guess we'll see.
ReplyDeleteThanks Joshua, that is what I am waiitng for and giving the benefit of the doubt over.
ReplyDeleteIt is, however, significant that Piper uses "final salvation" on purpose and with a specific application.
Lou
How about "salvation ready to be revealed at the last day" (1 Pet.1:5) or "eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" (Rom.8:23), or "present you faultless before the presence of His glory" (Jude 24)?
ReplyDelete"Final salvation" is just Bible, folks.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAaron:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. I was speaking to another pastor about Brother Doran’s series, this was his initial impression.
“(My)…first impression is that we should use biblical terms and language when we are discussing Bible subjects - otherwise things tend to get skewed. ‘Final salvation’ seems like man-made lingo to me.”
So far Dave’s series leaves more questions than answers. In Part 3 I am seeing the signs of which side one falls on the Lordship Salvation gospel being vaguely proposed as the issue that will mandate separation.
If Dave is going to talk about the Gospel and (in light of) Separation he needs to be crystal clear about his terms. You’ve attempted to offer some clarity, which I appreciate.
Dave should be defining the terms biblically, drawing clear distinctions and in a specific application. His most recent leaves me wondering what direction the series is taking and what target it is driving toward.
Maybe all of this will become more clear as his series continues.
That said, IMO there is now way to take Piper’s, “…real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation,” and steer it clear of works salvation. I am hopeful Dr. Doran will distance himself from that and even go so far as to repudiate it.
Thanks again.
Lou
I myself have preached for years that salvation comes in 3 phases, the "final" being in our glorified existence in Heaven with Christ. Still, a Biblical term here would remove all suspicion as to meaning.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, though, Lou may be correct. There is an implicit link between the Lordship Salvation teaching of MacArthur (which I think is an over-reaction to a horrific problem of modern, fluffy evangelism) and the concept of Regeneration by the Holy Spirit as taught from a Calvinist framework. There could be no LS teaching without the Calvinism. This certainly makes it possible that Dr. Doran and DBTS are espousing a Lordship-style view. I don't know.
I do know that I have seen Dr. Doran and DBTS faculty at Shepherd's Conference, and there have been discussions (and no, I don't have a problem with that).
Clearly, the Calvinism link between some of the Historic Fundamentalists and some of the Conservative Evangelicals produces an affinity where there might otherwise be almost no connection.
I do think a direct question to Dr. Doran would result in a clarification.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments above. I want to reply in two or more parts.
You wrote, “I do know that I have seen Dr. Doran and DBTS faculty at (John MacArthur’s) Shepherd’s Conference, and there have been discussions (and no, I don’t have a problem with that). Clearly, the Calvinism link between some of the Historic Fundamentalists and some of the Conservative Evangelicals produces an affinity where there might otherwise be almost no connection.”
I have no particular problem with that. He is at liberty to attend and/or guide his staff to whatever conferences, fellowships and movements he desires. It is, however, a tangible example of IFB men, who are Calvinistic in their theology, closing ranks with and formalizing ties with the “conservative” evangelicals (ce)- its star personalities and their fellowships.
The part I do have a problem with, but these Calvinistic IFB men apparently have little problem with, is their willingness to tolerate and/or ignore the obvious problems in doctrine, methods and *“worldliness” of with the ce men, without admonition (2 Thess. 3:15) for the sake of unity with them. The tie that binds in spite of these definite problem areas is Calvinism and Lordship Salvation. That has been shared with me by some of the men who are moving in that direction.
LM
*See The Merger of Calvinism With Worldliness
Michael:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “I myself have preached for years that salvation comes in 3 phases, the "final" being in our glorified existence in Heaven with Christ. Still, a Biblical term here would remove all suspicion as to meaning.”
No argument there, but as I have suggested- the quote from Piper is IMO irrefutably a works FOR salvation message. I’d like for Dr. Doran to indicate that he does NOT share the view as Piper expresses it.
You wrote, “All in all, though, Lou may be correct. There is an implicit link between the Lordship Salvation teaching of MacArthur (which I think is an over-reaction to a horrific problem of modern, fluffy evangelism) and the concept of Regeneration by the Holy Spirit as taught from a Calvinist framework. There could be no LS teaching without the Calvinism. This certainly makes it possible that Dr. Doran and DBTS are espousing a Lordship-style view. I don't know.”
No question that Lordship Salvation flows from a Calvinistic platform. There are men, however, well-known, highly trained men who are Calvinists that reject LS as MacArthur defines it.
Speaking only of what I read and mentioned in Part 3 of Doran’s series I do see underpinnings of the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel. Piper’s “lived-out obedience...FOR final salvation” quote is irrefutably the works-based, man centered LS message.
This week I received e-mails from two different pastors who have read Doran’s book on the Great Commission For the Sake of His Name (I have not).
Both pastors felt it was a good book. Combing both e-mails, they wrote- “…the only problem is that his book is thoroughly Calvinistic and Lordship Salvation is clearly within at points.”
LM
Michael:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “I do think a direct question to Dr. Doran would result in a clarification.”
That would be the ideal, but Dr. Doran does not allow for questions or comments at his blog where his series appears.
However, Dr. Doran has posted a new article at his blog. It is his reaction to the legitimate questions he has read here raised by myself and select others.
When we are going to discuss the Gospel we need to be biblically precise in our terms. I’m gratified Dr. Doran has felt the need to apply more biblical precision to some of his statements from Part 3 of his series, which I quote in the main article above.
Later I will have some reaction, most likely in a new main page article, to the clarifying article by Dr. Doran.
Thanks again for the insight and helpful observations.
Lou
Hi Lou, and All,
ReplyDeleteIf attaining "Final Salvation" requires something else, or more than the faith it takes to "get saved" then one was never saved through faith at all.
The faith that Abram had accounted to him as righteousness was assurance.
Assurance IS faith. Without assurance there is no faith. What we are assured by/in/through is what we have our faith in.
Are you looking at your state for assurance of your righteousness before God? Then that is what your faith is in.
Are you looking at the size or quality of your faith for assurance of your righteousness before God? Then that is what your faith is in.
If Christ's death, burial and resurrection in accordance with the Scriptures PERIOD (apart from anything else) is not enough to trust and supply Eternal Salvation, then salvation is not through faith alone in Christ alone.
Clever word games, and logic puzzles are entertaining until you realize that people's souls are on the line.
Christians, you know those people who through faith have been baptised into Christ's death, burial and resurrection, are called to preach Christ, not man.
We preach Christ's faithfulness, not man's.
We preach Christ's value, not man's.
We preach Christ's sufficiency, not man's.
We preach GRACE not WORK.
Why don't we who know Christ "worry" about good works as the Catholics cry "What about works?" Because Scripture tells us clearly that only by resting in Christ can one actually do good works. Because we're told clearly in Scripture that we are created IN Christ to carry out works that have been prepared before hand for us.
We don't need to seek works, we need to seek Christ. At no point will God judge our salvation by our works.
Becareful though, He will judge our salvation by our faith.
What are you putting your faith in? What are you telling others to put their faith in?
Kev
Kev:
ReplyDeleteJust one observation on, “Because we’re told clearly in Scripture that we are created IN Christ to carry out works that have been prepared before hand for us.”
You reference Eph. 2:10, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Here Paul is referring to those who have been born again the Bible way as we can read in the preceding verses of Eph. 2:8-9, by grace through faith. Once born again we trust that he/she will submit to the will of God and set out to perform those “good works” that God has foreordained for him/her. The decision for those “good works” belongs to the believer.
For me the crux of the Lordship Salvation (LS) debate is over justification.
Calling on the lost for submission, surrender and/or a commitment to, or as I sometimes say, “a promise to perform” the “good works” expected of Christian to BECOME a Christian is one of LS’s grievous errors. This changes the Gospel of grace into a man-centered message that corrupts “the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Cor. 11:3) and “frustrate(s) the grace of God” (Gal. 2:21).
Thanks for the note,
Lou