By inference then, he actually means one could be presented with and then consciously deny these truths and still be saved, for what does “excess baggage” of any kind have to do with one getting saved? After all, no part of the Gospel message could legitimately be called “excess baggage,” could it?
The Grace Evangelical Society (GES) led by Bob Wilkin has officially adopted Hodges’ redefinition of the Gospel, for the articles referenced above are published on their website. It also means that GES officially considers the doctrines of the Deity of Christ, His substitutionary death on the cross, and resurrection, as “excess baggage” as well.
Antonio da Rosa, who posts frequently at GES, has written on his personal blog that if he were witnessing to someone that objected to the Deity of Christ, he would put this issue “on the back-burner.” What da Rosa means by this is that he believes one could get saved while at the same time denying that Christ is God in the flesh. How do I know this is what he means? Look at this quote from his article below, How I Might Do Evangelism...
“As long as the listener is interested in continuing a conversation with me, I will point them to faith in Christ through His promise which guarantees eternal life to the believer. Being persuaded that Jesus is God is not the only psychological route that one can go by to become persuaded that Jesus guarantees their eternal destiny.” (emphasis mine)
Listen, one who denies that Jesus is God in the flesh is an antichrist! (See I John 2:22; I John 4:3; II John 1:7) To deny Christ’s Deity is to deny the very essence of who He is as the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. (See John 1:1,14) A lost person that denies who Christ claims to be, remains lost:
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins,” (John 8:24).
The fact that Bob Wilkin has not publicly corrected or rebuked da Rosa (who posts links to his personal blog on the GES blog), means by default that da Rosa’s quote above is indeed the official doctrinal position of the Grace Evangelical Society, namely, that one can be saved while maintaining a deliberate denial of the Deity of Christ. Pure unadulterated heresy!
According to Hodges article above, one needs only to believe in Jesus as the One who guarantees eternal life in order to become eternally saved. While it is true that this is all a person needs to do, this is not a limiter (as Hodges asserts) on what one needs to believe concerning Jesus. When the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved”? (Acts 16:30, emphasis mine), they replied to him, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house,” (Acts 16:31).
Notice that the jailer did not ask what he needed to believe, but what he needed to do. All one needs to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ. Paul and Silas then spoke the Word of God to the jailer and his household concerning what they must believe concerning Jesus:
“And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house,” (Acts 16:32)
What do you suppose the word was which they spoke to the jailer and his household? Could it be the same word they spoke in the synagogue in Antioch recorded just three chapters earlier in Acts 13, namely, the Deity of Christ, His death on the cross, burial, resurrection, and the forgiveness of sins for those who believe these things?
What Hodges has done is to redefine believing in Jesus in such a narrow way that it makes a mockery out of the Biblical truth of what it means to believe in Him. In Hodges’ deserted island scenario he pieced together the first part of John 6:43 with John 6:47 as follows: “But the only readable portions are: ‘Jesus therefore answered and said to them’ (v 43) and ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life,’” (v 47).
Hodges wants us to believe that the unsaved man alone on the island who had never heard anything of Christianity could be saved by reading this portion of the Bible alone. What a gross mishandling of God’s Word and misrepresentation of the Gospel! His article treats the name “Jesus” like a talisman. Just know and believe in the name and you won't be disappointed, regardless of not knowing who He is and what He has done to secure our eternal salvation.
What if in his island scenario the ink was blurred at the beginning of John 6:43 so that the name looked like “Josus”? Would Hodges still insist this man could be saved by trusting in Josus? Surely God would not let a little ink blur keep that poor soul out of Heaven, would He? Of course, Hodges would probably say that if God had sent that Scripture to the lost man, He would have kept the name intact. This really begs the question, for if God sends someone Scripture for the purpose of bringing them to a saving knowledge of Christ, He would have included the Gospel message preached by Paul and the other Apostles.
To believe in Jesus’ name is not to only know His name, it is to believe in who He is, for one’s name is the representation of one’s person. For Christ, this includes who He is and what He has done for us! If Hodges was intellectually honest here, he’d have to conclude that the lost man on the deserted island would really need to know the name “Yeshua,” for that is what He was really called.
To believe in Jesus as the granter of eternal life is to have the confidence in Him as God in the flesh who died for our sins on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead. To believe in a Jesus any less than this is, such as the hollow one in Hodges’ deserted island example, is to have an object of faith that cannot save. Hodges does grievous violence to Christ by divorcing Christ’s person from His work, for what Christ has done for us is forever tied to who He is. Note how John the Baptist identifies Him: “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.,” (John 1:29).
In Revelation 13:8 the Apostle John refers to Jesus as the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Hodges tries to justify himself by pointing to the following verse: “For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead,” (John 20:9).
Hodges wants us to believe that since the eleven disciples at that time (pre-Church Age) did not yet see clearly things they would later come to experience, that God holds us to that same standard today even though we are now in the Church Age. It is true that the Apostle John wrote his Gospel account for evangelical purposes as he stated in chapter 20: “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name,” (John 20:31).
However, one must understand that the Gospel of John was written after the Apostles had received power from on high from the indwelling Holy Spirit and had ushered in the Church Age. They had already been preaching for years the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, and the belief in Him for forgiveness of sins. Just because John makes reference in 20:9 back to a time when the Apostles’ understanding was less than what it later became, does not mean that our responsibility to believe what God has revealed in these last days can be retrograded back to that time in the past John was referring to. To state otherwise is nothing less than foolishness. Mankind’s responsibility is to heed the completed revelation of the Son. This is how God deals with us now, not through the filter of the 11 disciples’ understanding before they had seen our risen Lord!
Here is our standard: “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds,” (Heb. 1:2).
Ironically John 20:31, a verse Hodges quotes in part 1 of his article, includes one of the necessary beliefs that Hodges calls “excess baggage,” namely, the Deity of Christ! The phrase “Son of God” means that Christ has the same nature as God. Surely this is what the Apostle John has in mind if you remember that this same John also wrote John 1:1,14. To state otherwise is to lack a basic understanding of what a Jew meant at that time when they called someone a “son of,” as well as what the Apostle John meant. Otherwise, why would the unbelieving Jews think that Jesus blasphemed when He called Himself the Son of God? (See John 10:36)
Also, note what came just three verses before John 20:31: “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God,” (John 20:28, emphasis mine).
What did Jesus reply to him? “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed,” (John 20:29, emphasis mine).
What was Thomas believing? He was believing in his crucified and resurrected Lord as God in the flesh!
It’s unbelievable that Hodges asserts in his article that the Gospel of John does not make it clear that one must believe in the substitutionary death of Christ for us. Concerning John 20:30-31 he writes:
“This statement does not affirm the necessity of believing in our Lord’s substitutionary atonement. If by the time of the writing of John’s Gospel, it was actually necessary to believe this, then it would have been not only simple, but essential, to say so.”
Actually, early in the Gospel of John, Jesus did say so: “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life,” (John 3:14,15).
At Kadesh Barnea those who were bitten by the snakes survived if they took one look at the bronze serpent on the pole. Likewise, one look of faith at the Lord Jesus Christ crucified and risen again is what saves. To deny that the substitutionary death of Christ is needed to be believed in order to be saved, is to teach that one can be saved without looking!
The Deity of Christ and His substitutionary death, burial, and resurrection is not merely the basis of the Gospel as taught by GES, it is the Gospel! To believe in Jesus is to trust in Him as the One who accomplished the work of salvation on our behalf, to trust that He is the One who paid the price for our sins and rose from the dead. To deny these fundamental truths is to call the Old Testament prophets, Jesus, the Father, and the Apostles liars.
No one can come to Christ unless he is drawn by the Father. When a person hears the Word of God and comes under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, if they then maintain a denial of the nature of Christ and His work of salvation via the cross and resurrection, they are also calling the Holy Spirit a liar. Do you suppose the Holy Spirit will then indwell that person and save them, thereby legitimizing their unbelief of the only work that can save them? Of course not! According to John 14:17, the Holy Spirit is called the “Spirit of truth.” He will not lend any credence to the rejection of God’s work of salvation, for the cross is the only manner in which God bestows His mercy and grace.
To reject the cross of Christ is to reject God’s salvation. Such rejection is tantamount to rebuking (or mocking) the Holy Spirit, and is not merely a misconception as taught by Hodges, Wilkin, and da Rosa. I guarantee you that as long as a lost person does this they will remain lost. GES’s dismissal of the necessity to believe that Christ paid for our sins on the cross makes it unnecessary for GES’s followers to confront the cultists who teach lies such as the death of Christ is not sufficient to save from sins, or that his death was merely to provide universal resurrection as Mormon doctrine teaches.
GES makes a mockery of the following Scripture: “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him,” (II Cor. 11:4, emphasis mine).
The following quote is from Antonio da Rosa’s (He posts links to his blog on the GES blog, so his views are the views of GES as long as GES does not rebuke him) article titled “Will the REAL Jesus Please Stand Up” posted August 6, 2007.
“If one unique reference is all that it takes to limit that reference to a specific person, why is it that we say that Mormons refer to a wholly ‘different Jesus’ when they make reference to Him in (at least) 20 unique and distinct areas of agreement with evangelicals?
We all have or had misunderstandings and misconceptions about Jesus. How many misconceptions about Jesus does it take to make Him another Jesus? Can a simple misunderstanding preclude me from refering to the historical Jesus Christ? What if all I had was the gospel of John and I was misinformed and believed that Jesus Christ was born in Jerusalem, not Bethlehem. Yet I have read the gospel of John and make reference to Him from there. Am I necessarily referring to a ‘different’ Jesus because of this misconception?”
First of all, the Gospel of John gives the correct birthplace of Christ: “Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was,” (John 7:42)?
But the issue at hand is that the Jesus of any cult, whether Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, LDS, or any other is not preaching another Jesus according to GES, as long as the cult can give at least one identifier that points to the correct historical Jesus. According to GES, anything else such as denying the Deity of Christ like the Watchtower, or claiming that Jesus is just another god among many, and is the “spirit brother” of Satan as in LDS doctrine is merely a “misconception.” Unbelievable!
Look at the context of II Cor. 11:4. It’s about another spirit, another gospel! It isn’t about someone introducing a different historical figure who also happened to be named Jesus.
To blind the minds of people, what tactic do you think Satan would use – introduce an altogether different historic person but call him by the same name “Jesus” that brings false doctrines, or would he point to the same historical Jesus while twisting the truth of who Jesus is? In the first instance, Satan would have no credibility at all. What would be the point? In the second, he would have a grain of truth in that he would be outwardly pointing to the same historic Jesus, but at the same time denying the true nature of who Jesus really is. Obviously, Satan will use the tactic that gets the most results, as well as misrepresenting the nature of the particular historical Jesus that he hates the most. Without a doubt Satan has truly blinded GES concerning the Gospel!
My brother and sisters in Christ, Hodges, Wilkin, da Rosa and GES pervert the Gospel of Christ by gutting it of the power of its saving message, and are leading others into grave error. Their false gospel will have lost people believing they are saved when they are not, and will have those of you that are carried away with them losing your eternal reward. I have written this in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, with God being my witness that I write the truth.
It grieved me to write this article, as I have profited from Hodges’ biblically based teachings of the past, though I have not always agreed with him on every point, but now he has assaulted and undermined the very Gospel itself. Do not let the sophistry of Hodges and GES deceive you. Pray for the recovery of Hodges, Wilkin, da Rosa and those they’ve lead astray, but you stay true to the Gospel! I forever shall!
Phillip M. Evans © 2007
*Brother Evans in the midst of writing a book, but will be looking in on the thread and will reply to comments as time permits.
Dear Guests:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate Brother Evans weighing in on the debate with this article.
What could be more disconcerting than the assault on the Gospel and the Lord’s Deity? Yet, Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, jeremy Myers, Antonio da Rosa (the GES) thinks nothing of assaulting the Lord's titles.
Recently da Rosa attacked the person and nature of Jesus Christ with the absurd statement that, “the Mormon Jesus and the Evangelical Jesus are one and the same.” Please see Can the Mormon Jesus and Evangelical Jesus be, “One and the Same?”
I trust any Bible-believing Christian would be offended by that reckless remark from da Rosa and would appeal to his senses before he goes even further into these egregious errors.
Feel free to respond to Brother Evan’s article and interact with him in this thread.
LM
Sadly for most it is just another open minded discussion and we are considered to be among the close minded for rightly being indignant about all of this.
ReplyDeleteAnd they always like to use these hypothetical scenarios to either question what they feel they believe or to add creedance to what their interpreters and teachers believe. If you pull out the word of God and ask them if they can see it written there in black and white they revert to more scenarios to explore further possibilities and loopholes around what is clearly written. Therefore if you cannot convince them with the clear plain scriptures then how can they be convinced any other way? This is why the forum itself will continue to breed more and more people who will be tempted to be puffed up about the knowledge and new understanding that they feel is refreshing and liberating to them.
ReplyDeleteCould you please give us some info about Mr. Evans background?
ReplyDeleteThis was a good article by Mr Evans.
ReplyDeleteGreetings all, I don't mind giving a little background about myself since I checked and confirmed that my full name is not in the phone book. :-)
ReplyDeleteI just value privacy, especially for my family. But if the limelight hits me someday, I might sign a few autographs. LOL
I'm a Christian layman having never attained seminary, but have been blessed to learn a little from men who have, as well as from other laymen.
Currently I'm in the process of writing a book defending the doctrine of eternal security from a Biblical, non-Calvinist point of view.
I'm a closet orator who sometimes gives rousing sermons in my daydreams, but really know deep down that I'm a much better writer than a speaker, and the only reason for that is I have the opportunity to edit dozens of times before anyone sees what I write. I probably wouldn't do much better than a head of lettuce in a verbal debate.
Personal info: 40's, married 5 years with a young son, and live in Georgia. Work a full-time day job.
Testimony: The Lord Jesus Christ mercifully saved me when I was a teenager.
God bless those of you who are defending the Gospel of Christ!
Phillip M. Evans
I'm a closet orator who sometimes gives rousing sermons in my daydreams
ReplyDeleteLOL... oh my a kindred writer!
Kev
Amen and if the moths aren't listening we can preach to the mothballs.
ReplyDeleteThanks for telling us about yourself brother.
Dear Lou and Phillip,
ReplyDeleteWhat I am about to say is going to sound harsh in places. It’s not written to sound that way, but it comes across as such because of the nature of the above article’s claims.
Representing someone’s thoughts and theological positions is serious business. It is important not to misquote someone or misrepresent them.
Unfortunately, in several cases above this is exactly what has happened. I’m going to list some of my observations. You may have problems with Wilkin, Hodges, and da Rosa based on other points, but these are incorrect:
1) The article’s quote about Hodge’s view of the deity of Christ, the atonement, and the resurrection, “In part 2 of his article Hodges calls these doctrines “excess baggage.”
This is incorrect. Here’s what Hodges says, I quote:
“I now realize that no one is saved by praying a prayer. They are saved when they understand God’s offer of eternal life through Jesus and believe it. That’s when people are saved. And that’s the only time when people are saved. All of the excess baggage that we bring into our encounter with unsaved sinners is just that, excess baggage!”
Hodges is not saying these doctrines are excess baggage. He’s saying that all the things we try to get a person to “do” in addition to believing on Christ are excess baggage.
It’s easy to see that from a careful reading of his article.
2) Phil’s article says that, “Hodges does grievous violence to Christ by divorcing Christ’s person from His work, for what Christ has done for us is forever tied to who He is.”
Notice also Hodges evangelism illustration of talking to “Ralph”. To quote,
“Let’s suppose I have been talking to "Ralph," an unsaved young man. I have given him the gospel about the death and resurrection of Christ. I have emphasized the point that the Lord Jesus, by His death on the cross, has completely satisfied God in regard to Ralph’s sins. Christ has paid for all the sins Ralph would ever commit from the day of his birth to the day of his death. Thus Jesus has purchased Ralph’s way to heaven.” (bold and underlining mine)
He calls the “death and resurrection of Christ” part of the Gospel. How is this divorcing Christ’s person from his work?
Also note Hodges quote in article 2, “In the case of "believe that Jesus died on the cross" the focus is on an action He performed (admittedly an indispensable one).”
He calls Jesus death on the cross “indispensable”. So whatever your point about using the cross in evangelism, Hodges believes that Christ’s death was absolutely essential to our salvation.
You’ve taken his one example of the Desert Island Scenario and slanted it to make Hodges sound like he’s saying something different. His Desert Island example is just to show the ludicrous nature of the Lordship Salvation camp’s claims. You’re making it say something beyond his intended meaning.
3) Please quote the verse in the Acts 13 passage where Paul preached the deity of Christ. And I don’t believe his points of Jesus being the Son, or Holy One, or one spoken of by the prophets are necessarily referring to deity. I doubt the hearers of this message would have assumed it meant his deity either. (by the way I do believe in the deity of Christ and see it taught in other Scripture. I just don’t see that the Scriptures you’re using support your point.)
4) Here’s a quote from the article above that is a contradiction, “According to Hodges article above, one needs only to believe in Jesus as the One who guarantees eternal life in order to become eternally saved. While it is true that this is all a person needs to do,…”
So are your criticizing Hodges for holding this position or agreeing with him? You can’t do both. You say that “this is true”…but then you try to say it’s not true. Which is it? You can’t agree with him and disagree at the same time.
5) You’ve misquoted Scripture in your use 1 John 2:22 which says:
1 John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son”
This says Jesus is the Christ. And that he who denies this fact and denies the Father is the Antichrist.
While there are many Scriptures pointing to the deity of Christ, it’s a stretch to say this is one of them. It’s technically defining Jesus as the Messiah. 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7 basically say the same thing; that Jesus is the anointed one or Messiah come in the flesh.
At best these examples are the result of sloppy analysis, at worst sheer misrepresentation. I hope for the former, but the result is still the same: people have been made to say something that they are not; thus being misrepresented.
Hi Shawn, I'll try to keep this as short as possible.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately you are either a victim of the GES double-speak or you are an active participant. I can not tell which by your post. You start off seeming to be deceived by their tactics and purpose but later engage in very similar practice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you should be aware of the fact.
The GES always (at least in my observation) will give lip service to good doctrine. This allows them to be quoted like you have. Yet it is interesting that while you complain about Evan only taking part of the quote you do the same.
The GES will say they preach the "gospel" but that if the person doesn't want to believe it they will abandon it. So we can quote Zane Hodges all day saying that he'll tell them about Christ's work on the Cross. In the end, that doctrine, to Mr. Hodges, is the excess baggage he was talking about. It's not something that is NEEDED to be believed. It's something that is a "nice to know".
To keep with my promise to have this be as short as possible I will not respond line by line. I will encourage you to investigate the difference between the "Titles" of works done by the GES and the "Content" of those works. The Titles are often simply "escape vehicles" like when Antonio at Unashamed (yes I lump them all together) titles his post " Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer uses Refined (Consistent) Free Grace Theology phraseology" but then goes on to argue support for their Crossless gospel. When challenged they go back to the title as though any English reader could not see what they were attempting to accomplish.
The Gospel is sealed by 1 Cor 15:11. No matter which Apostle preached it, this is what we preached 1 Cor 15:1-10, and this is what you believed. There is no lesser gospel that saves.
Finally I want to do a bit of exegesis on one part of your post. I would respond to more but this is getting very long.
You said 5) You’ve misquoted Scripture in your use 1 John 2:22 which says:
1 John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son”
This says Jesus is the Christ. And that he who denies this fact and denies the Father is the Antichrist.
This actually is a fantasticly clear statement of Christ's deity. You have done grave damage to the language in your paraphrase. It says exactly what it says in 1 John 2:22.
If you deny Jesus is the Christ you are antichrist who denies both the Father and the Son
This should require no more evidence than to simply quote 1 Jn 2:22. But since you have been taught to both proof-text and to see doctrine before Scripture I will offer some more proof for you. Only in the hope that you will snap your head back into submission to the Word of God.
We find John's own explanation of Verse 22 in Verse 23.
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
There is also 1 John 1:1-4 which I will let you go look up. This section also rebukes the GES in that the Christ is identified by what He has done.
Kev
Kev...
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input and evaluation.
My post was not so much about the debate at large, but some of the logic, exegesis, and conclusions made in the article.
I'm not going to get into the general debate here as there is already much written accross the web about it. I'm pretty familiar with most the issues.
Just a few comments though...
You say..."you complain about Evan only taking part of the quote you do the same."
My complaint is not with taking part of a quote...but making it say something it's not. I have no problem with partial quotes if they are represented within the context of the authors overall message and if the meaning conveyed is within the intent of the author's original theme.
You say..."But since you have been taught to both proof-text and to see doctrine before Scripture I will offer some more proof for you."
Number one, I was not quoting 1 John 2:2 to proof-text it. I was making a comment on the article's use of 1 John 2:2 which I disagreed with.
Number 2, you make a conclusion about me out of being ignorant of my background (being taught proof-texting and reading theology into the text?). I am quite aware these are serious hermeneutical errors and try to avoid them at all costs.
A comment on prooftexting: I do see this as a large problem within both camps of this debate.
However, using a single verse to support a point is not always proof-texting. It only becomes so if it's given a meaning different from the larger context of the passage. And as I said before, I still see that as a problem with the article above.
You say, "In the end, that doctrine, to Mr. Hodges, is the excess baggage he was talking about. It's not something that is NEEDED to be believed. It's something that is a "nice to know". "
As such, it's interesting that he includes this "excess baggage" as the very first content he discusses with "Ralph" in his example.
Thus back to my original conclusion; is that what he meant by "excess baggage"? I don't see it. I see his point (and I think he does also) as arguing against the onerous requirements of Lordship Salvation on what a person needs to do to be saved.
Hi Shawn,
ReplyDeleteHodges' end statements are that one does not need to believe that Christ died on the Cross for our sins and rose again three days later to be seen in the flesh by many people. This is where he goes with his "excess baggage" statement. This is the conclusion he gets to, thus he includes knowledge and belief in the Gospel as excess baggage.
I don't really care what the term is used.. Mr. Hodges claims one need not believe the Gospel to be saved.
Your quote of Mr. Hodges does more of what you complain about Phillip doing than does Phillip's quote. At least Phillip's quote preserves the whole of what Mr. Hodges says. No matter what Mr. Hodges starts out saying, he is willing to eliminate the Gospel from his supposed salvation message. Thus it doesn't matter what he starts saying he's not "proclaiming" or "preaching" it. He's simply giving it lip service. Whereas the Apostle Paul said "this" is what we have preached and "this" is what you have believed. And "this" is the message that saves.
Shawn, you quoted 1 Jn 2:22 without verse 23 and then explained it in a way that goes completely against the Apostle's own explanation in verse 23. I do hope you try to avoid doing this stuff but in this case it is a plain instance of "proof-texting" where a single verse (or section) is quoted without it's Biblical interpretation to support a doctrine or idea.
You are correct that no doctrine can violate a single verse and be considered true. But no single verse or section can establish a true doctrine that goes against the plain Biblical interpretation of that verse or section.
My conclusions about what you've been taught are based on who you defend, and how you do so. Also by your treatment of 1 Jn 2:22. I may not have enough information to come to a true conclusion which is why I told you I would give you the benefit of the doubt, and I have.
I feel stretched in this now because of your willful ignorance of 1 Jn 2:23 in this reply to me. Instead of saying, yes the Apostle is correct you continue to defend the purpose of your erroneous comment on 1 Jn 2:22.
Brother Phillip should have included 1 Jn 2:23 in his presentation in order to avoid such confusion. But I believe that our Brother is right to allow scholarship to show it's self.
Surely my scholarship and lack of it shows in arguments where I am wrong and this allows that to become clear. So I respect the wisdom and practice of my Brother in this regard.
Kev
Shawn said: You’ve taken his one example of the Desert Island Scenario and slanted it to make Hodges sound like he’s saying something different. His Desert Island example is just to show the ludicrous nature of the Lordship Salvation camp’s claims. You’re making it say something beyond his intended meaning.
ReplyDeleteI respectfully submit that I do not think we are misrepresenting the Deserted Island Scenario (DIS). Immediately after the DIS Hodge's goes on to say "I suspect that there are some grace people who would say that this man is not saved because he doesn’t know enough. For example, he doesn’t know that Jesus died for his sins on the cross and rose again the third day. Needless to say, there is a lot more he doesn’t know either, such as the doctrine of the Trinity, the eternal Sonship of Jesus or the doctrine of the virgin birth." Zane Hodges makes it clear with this statement that his point is not simply to counter LS, nor do I see anything in the context of the DIS to think Zane Hodges is simply using hyperbole for the sake of emphasis. The DIS, in context, specifically challenges free grace people -- or anyone else -- who think belief in these, or any other doctrines, is necessary for a lost man to receive Everlasting Life.
Hi Shawn,
ReplyDeleteCould you clarify what in particular you are disagreeing with Phillip on? I could not tell from your posts if you believe that Hodges, Wilkin, da Rosa, etc. are being misrepresented, or merely that these particular quotes have been misrepresented. In other words, do you agree that Hodges, et al. do NOT view the death, rez, and deity of Jesus as essential for the lost to believe in order to be born again (yet you disagree that these specific quotes support such a position)? Or do you believe that Hodges, et al. hold that the death, rez, and deity of Jesus ARE essential for the lost to believe in order to be born again?
Shawn, I did not misrepresent Zane Hodges' “excess baggage” comment to any degree. To Hodges, requiring a lost person to believe something more than his definition of the Gospel, is adding to the Gospel. In fact, in Part 1 of his article under the heading “Adding to the Gospel”, he says:
ReplyDelete“In other words, God does not say to people, “You trusted my Son’s name, but you didn’t believe in His virgin birth, or His substitutionary atonement, or His bodily resurrection, so your faith is not valid.” We say that, but God’s Word does not.”
It is plain as one's nose that what Hodges said above shows that he clearly is teaching that a lost person who maintains a denial that Christ died for them and rose from the dead can be saved while maintaining this very denial. Therefore, the necessity to believe in the substitutionary death of Christ and resurrection is not part of the Gospel according to Hodges.
You also tried to show that I was incorrect to state that Hodges divorces the person of Christ from His work. Hodges' quote above proves that my assessment is correct.
You quoted another portion of Hodges article that supposedly proves me wrong when he says:
“Let’s suppose I have been talking to "Ralph," an unsaved young man. I have given him the gospel about the death and resurrection of Christ. I have emphasized the point that the Lord Jesus, by His death on the cross, has completely satisfied God in regard to Ralph’s sins. Christ has paid for all the sins Ralph would ever commit from the day of his birth to the day of his death. Thus Jesus has purchased Ralph’s way to heaven.”
When Hodges in the above quote uses the term “gospel” in the same breath as the death and resurrection of Christ, it is a smoke screen. I know what he is doing here, but you did not catch it. Hodges and GES are very clever and subtle. They will sometimes use the term “gospel” when speaking of these doctrines, but they are not using “gospel” here in the technical sense of what one must believe in order to be saved. They are using the term only in the general sense of the word as to mean “good news”. Thus, they give lip service to the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, but then trample on these doctrines as “excess baggage” by stating that a lost person can be saved while denying the truth of them!
You said, “He calls Jesus death on the cross 'indispensable'. So whatever your point about using the cross in evangelism, Hodges believes that Christ’s death was absolutely essential to our salvation.”
To Hodges, the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is the basis of the Gospel, and is also “gospel” in the sense of good news. However, to him, these doctrines are not the actual Gospel which saves. Hodges' quote at the top of my reply here is proof that what I'm stating is the truth.
You said, “You’ve taken his one example of the Desert Island Scenario and slanted it to make Hodges sound like he’s saying something different. His Desert Island example is just to show the ludicrous nature of the Lordship Salvation camp’s claims. You’re making it say something beyond his intended meaning.”
Absolutely not. Hodges' DIS goes beyond arguing against LS to also arguing against the traditional evangelical understanding of the Gospel message, for shortly after presenting the DIS scenario Hodges says,
“But in our own circles, there is a tendency to add theological information to our message of faith.”
You said, “Please quote the verse in the Acts 13 passage where Paul preached the deity of Christ. And I don’t believe his points of Jesus being the Son, or Holy One, or one spoken of by the prophets are necessarily referring to deity. I doubt the hearers of this message would have assumed it meant his deity either.”
I do believe those things are referring to Christ's deity, as does the Apostle Paul.
You quoted my article where I wrote, “According to Hodges article above, one needs only to believe in Jesus as the One who guarantees eternal life in order to become eternally saved. While it is true that this is all a person needs to do,…”
Then you said, “So are your criticizing Hodges for holding this position or agreeing with him? You can’t do both. You say that 'this is true'…but then you try to say it’s not true. Which is it? You can’t agree with him and disagree at the same time.”
Did you purposely cut my quote short? It looks like you are doing a little distorting here, something that you said one shouldn't do. The point I was making is that Hodges was making this a limiter on what one must believe. My assertion is that all one must do to be saved is to believe in Jesus, but that this by definition also includes believing who Christ claimed to be and what He has done for us. Hodges does not hold to this teaching. Perhaps you didn't mean to distort what I said. Maybe this was just sloppy analysis on your part by not reading clearly or all of what I wrote.
You said, “You’ve misquoted Scripture in your use 1 John 2:22 which says:”
Not one whit did I misuse that Scripture. The title 'Christ' is a title of Deity for Jesus, for the prophets testified of who the Messiah is. Check out Isaiah 9:6, Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:8.
Dear Shawn:
ReplyDeleteWelcome to my blog, I appreciate your participation.
I did note some comments between you and Phil about the deity of Christ as it relates to Hodges’ “Crossless interpretation of the Gospel. I only have time to reference you to the series by Greg Schliesmann titled, The “Christ” Under Siege. Part 1 & Part 2.
The two part series was written in Sept. 2007 and I am not sure you have ever read it. The series is thoroughly documented. IMO, it will be very helpful for you to read.
LM
Good question Rachel. Had I been more loving I'd have given Shawn opportunity to answer that.
ReplyDeleteKev
I talked about these issues with Bob Wilkin face to face last night. Your conclusions on all of this and Bob's theology has escalated to absurdity because you are talking to each other instead of talking to Bob or Zane. I encourage you to do the same. You paint Bob as an enemy of the gospel instead of a man who deeply loves the Lord and the gospel message. I would encourage you to tone down the dialogue and walk in love. I don't see that happening here right now. I assume I will be attacked next fo saying that, but the "battle for truth" does not mean we "kill" fellow saints. (My qualifications? I'm a pastor of more than 30 years, a deeply evangelical thinker, I love the gospel and the church.) Ok, I'm done, God bless you guys. Pray for one another.
ReplyDeleteDear Mike:
ReplyDeleteI am going to break my reply into multiple sections for clarity purposes.
You wrote, “I talked about these issues with Bob Wilkin face to face last night.” May I ask, What issues?
When you first visited my blog you raised some concerns and said that you never heard of this “Crossless” gospel or any one from GES teaching it. I gave you some documentation and links. You told me you were going to talk to Bob. This was in my article Wilkin (Hodges) No Longer Relevant: The Biblical Mandate
In that thread I suggested you ask Bob questions, such as:
Can a lost man be saved apart from understanding or believing in whom Jesus was and “what He did to provide salvation?”
If a lost man is told that he must believe Jesus died and rose from the dead do you believe that constitutes a “different Gospel?”
I suggested you focus on what Bob believes a lost man can know and/or reject about Jesus and what He did for salvation and still be born again.
Did you ask Bob any of these kinds of questions?
Please advise.
Thanks,
Lou
Dear Mike:
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your concern and I want to offer some thoughts and questions.
I do not participate in or allow for personal attacks of any kind. In the “battle for truth,” however, doctrinal error and the men that propagate it will be respectively discussed and identified.
There are, however, biblical commands that mandate the course of action when Christian brothers not only adopt false teaching, but also seek to aggressively promote it. (Rom. 16:17-18; 2 Thess 3:6, 14-15)
Hodges and Wilkin are such men.
LM
Dear Mike:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, “Your conclusions on all of this and Bob’s theology has escalated to absurdity because you are talking to each other instead of talking to Bob or Zane. I encourage you to do the same.”
Bob and Zane REFUSE to discuss their doctrine on the Gospel in any blog, even the GES blogs.
Furthermore, they are pulling back from discussing their doctrine on the Gospel with almost anyone outside a narrow circle of those they have had an influence with and/or are sympathetic to the “Crossless” gospel.
In 2007 Bob wrote and posted two articles on the Gospel at his original GES blog. Bob refused to discuss his articles or answer any questions in the lengthy discussion threads that followed. Finally, Bob deleted both of the major articles, and reopened a new blog.
For much of early 2007 Bob was aggressively seeking an open debate on the Gospel. He challenged Pastors Rokser and Stegall, both of whom declined. Once Ron Shea accepted the challenge Bob suddenly lost his taste for the debate he had been calling for. See these articles on the Open Challenge.
In late 2007 the Free Grace Alliance scheduled, but ultimately postponed a private academic discussion. The FGA invited Bob and Zane to participate. The intent of the meeting was to give each side in the debate a fair hearing and hash the issues out. Bob and Zane both refused to participate. IMO, that meeting will never take place because men like Bob and Zane do NOT want to openly discuss and have their view of the Gospel put under any intense scrutiny.
When I first encountered the “Crossless” view of the Gospel Bob and I exchanged a few cordial e-mails. Shortly after, however, Bob (and Jeremy Myers) blocked and/or refused any communication from me via e-mail or in GES blogs.
In all sincerity I ask you: Are these the actions of a man who wants to talk to each other.
LM
Brother Mike:
ReplyDeleteWould it satisfy you if I were to publish an open invitation to Bob Wilkin asking him to agree to meet with me for a discussion of his view of the Gospel?
I am going to be in Dallas in April. I would be happy to take a few minutes to ask Bob a few questions in person then or over the phone now.
What do you think his reaction might be if I were to request a private meeting at the GES office (or my hotel) to ask Bob a few questions, such as the ones I encouraged you to ask him?
As I noted above, Bob refuses to accept or reply to my contacts.
Would you, therefore, act as my ambassador and request that he allow me to ask a few clarifying questions on his interpretation of the Gospel?
Lou
Mike,
ReplyDeleteI would also like to point out that my husband and I have exchanged several emails with Bob Wilkin about these very issues (Bob spoke at our church several months ago so we had a connection). Bob explained his position on the gospel very clearly. In the last email he sent to us, he stated that he did not have time for any more exchanges, but he did say that we understood the issues well and he had no correction to make to our understanding of his view on the gospel.
Perhaps you are confused, as Shawn seems to be above, in that because Hodges/Wilkin personally believe in the death and rez of Jesus, and that they think the death and rez are important to share when witnessing and would in fact usually share about them, and also that Hodges/Wilkin view the death/rez as essential to making the offer of eternal life possible. These things are all true, and are fine and are NOT what we are concerned with here. But they can certainly make things confusing.
What we are concerned with is NOT what they personally believe, NOT what they would probably share when witnessing, and NOT what they think was necessary to make it possible for people to be born again. We ARE concerned with what Hodges/Wilkin think is necessary for the lost person to believe to be born again. This is what we are discussing, and their view on this specifically is what we are rejecting. Their position on this is well-documented and well-established. No one is misrepresenting their position, and I don't see absurdity in anyone's conclusions regarding their theology. In fact, Bob Wilkin, Jeremy Myers, Antonio da Rosa, et al. have already acknowledged that we understand them perfectly. The debate is not over "what is" Wilkin's position, the debate is over "is Wilkin (and others) biblically correct" on his position.
Rachel:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "What we are concerned with is NOT what they personally believe, NOT what they would probably share when witnessing, and NOT what they think was necessary to make it possible for people to be born again. We ARE concerned with what Hodges/Wilkin think is necessary for the lost person to believe to be born again."
We have been pressing this for many months, and it appears we will have to keep that on the front burner.
The GES men have consistently exhibited a determination to steer clear of that aspect (in bold above) of the debate.
Lou
Mike, just want to add that you are incorrect in asserting that we are negligent in interacting directly with Bob Wilkin. My wife and I have civilly interacted directly with both Bob Wilkin and Jeremy Myers. We continue to have some contact with Jeremy Myers, though he is no longer with GES, but Bob Wilkin eventually stated that he no longer had the time to continue dialogging with us regarding these matters. In our final contact he affirmed that I was well read and understood his views regarding at least this issue. For this reason I find it ironic that I am frequently accused of misrepresenting Bob Wilkin's views when the man himself has said I've got him right.
ReplyDeleteI would be happy to continue the dialog with him but he specifically told us he would no longer do so... not because he thinks we fail to understand him, but in fact because he acknowledged that we DO understand him and simply disagree on the logical and theological conclusions.
Furthermore, my wife (the Rachel who posted above) and I continue to directly engage other advocates of the GES philosophy here and on other blogs -- we are by no means just "talking to each other" about this issue. Kev and Lou are also active on other blogs
My spirit is not critical, nor am I offended in anyway, but you have assumed too much and I thought you should have the facts.
Thus, on Bob Wilkin's own affirmation, I am certain that we are not misrepresenting his views in any way... unless he has changed his views in the last couple of months and not made it public yet. I seriously doubt that has happened but even if it has you could not fault us for not knowing because he is the one who cut off our correspondence, not the other way around. That's his prerogative but you should know the facts and factor them into your views on this matter.
My guess, and it is only a guess but one based on my own repeated experience with Bob Wilkin, is that you didn't ask him clear questions, or you did but he answered them using common terms backed by uncommon definitions. He did this when I asked him if he agreed with our church's Statement of Faith -- He claimed he agreed with out SoF but, when pressed for specifics, he could only agree with our SoF if he was allowed to read his slanted views and definitions into the terms. Once I explained how our church used and defined those terms he could no longer claim agreement. It was at this point that he bowed out of the conversation. Again, that's his prerogative but you are uninformed to level a finger at us as you have.
I hope that clears some things up and I genuinely do hope you continue to correspond with us.
Stephen
Doh, I see that my wife and Lou have both posted in the time it took me to write my own post... I'm terribly slow at forming my thoughts. :-) I realize some of the info in my post above is redundant but I will leave it... just wanted to explain that I actually wrote it before my wife did... she just beat me to the submit button. :-)
ReplyDeleteStepehn:
ReplyDeleteBoth you and Rachel made excellent notes on actual discussions with Wilkin.
I give Mike benefit of the doubt, but he needs to realize that Wilkin is the one who has been having the problem with communicating accurately and consistently.
Furthermore, he needs to ask defining questions of Wilkin if he wants to get at the truth of Wilkins's "Crossless" view of the Gospel as it relates to the lost and what must be believed for the reception of eternal life.
Lou
PS: I think you owe Rachel a copy-cat fee. (Ha,ha)
MIke:
ReplyDeleteEarlier in this thread I questoned you on whether or not you personally asked Bob Wilkin any doctrinal questions. You did not reply.
Did you ask him to specifically define what his interpretation of the Gospel is for this dispensation?
LM