tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post8287793164213514907..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Unpacking the Difference Between the Gospel of Grace and the Works-Based Approach of Lordship SalvationLou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-60734883821602754182010-09-04T22:07:05.787-05:002010-09-04T22:07:05.787-05:00Thanks for your kind words Jimmy. Just a few years...Thanks for your kind words Jimmy. Just a few years ago my answer wouldn't have been so clear. Lou and the contacts I made through his blog a few years ago really helped me nail it down.Orangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13385339200643211924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-58659215028682869112010-09-04T07:55:41.113-05:002010-09-04T07:55:41.113-05:00Stephen,
I loved your comments, "I will alwa...Stephen,<br /><br />I loved your comments, "I will always and only point them back to the moment of their belief in the finished work of Christ. When it comes down to it, you either believe it or you don't, and that's all there is to "salvation". Growing beyond that is "desired" but not "required" for salvation.<br /><br />This scriptural distinction you make between salvation and service, as well as the biblical basis you point to for Assurance of salvation is quite refreshing to hear. <br /><br />Salvation vs. Service:<br /><br />Indeed God "desires" that believers walk in good works AFTER salvation, but He does not "require" (nor will He accept)works to receive or maintian salvation. <br /><br />Biblical Basis for Assurace of Salvation:<br /><br />When talking about biblical assurace, we as Christians would do well to not use works/lack of works as a litmus test to determine if someone else is saved or not. We certainly don't use that litmust test on ourselves for assurance of salvation, so why do we impose an unbiblical litmus test (i.e. works/lack of works as evidence of saving faith) on others? <br /><br />With regard to biblical assurace of salvation Stephen, I couldn't have said it better; "I will always and only point them back to the moment of their belief in the finished work of Christ".<br /><br />Well done,<br />JimmyJimmy O'Rourkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14716790673405855707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-77724769096714663802010-08-19T14:02:59.429-05:002010-08-19T14:02:59.429-05:00Stephen:
Thnaks for your commenst above.
As you ...Stephen:<br /><br />Thnaks for your commenst above.<br /><br />As you noted, debunking and refuting the GES reductionist <i>Crossless</i> gospel heresy was much easier than dealing with LS. <br /><br /> You wrote, "<i>because the LS heart for strong and productive disciples IS desirable however misplaced as it relates to salvation</i>."<br /><br />Dr. Ernest Pickering in his critical review of JMac's <i>TGATJ</i> also noted that. He said, and I paraphrase, "<i>we all desire to see Christians who produce lasting fruit, but the answer is not found in changing the terms of the gospel</i>," which is what LS does.<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-718515292919121602010-08-19T10:08:54.800-05:002010-08-19T10:08:54.800-05:00Jan: Was I going to agree with God (get on the sam...Jan: <b>Was I going to agree with God (get on the same page as Him) regarding my lost condition, and was I going to accept the solution He provided (Jesus Christ and Him crucified)? The answer to both questions was "yes." I have been saved ever since.</b><br /><br />I 2nd Jan, that's it in a nutshell. :-)<br /><br />Lou: <b>Most address repentance in the context of the Lordship Salvation or the Zane Hodges “Crossless” gospel debates</b><br /><br />There was a debate??? ;-) I must have missed that... the RFG crowd dodged and cried foul a lot, but I've yet to see anything from them that rose to the level of "debate". Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk. (sorry, just had to get that in...)<br /><br />On topic, I've begun engaging LS recently myself. Debunking RFG was easy, confronting LS was a little harder for me personally because the LS heart for strong and productive disciples IS desirable however misplaced as it relates to salvation.<br /><br />The bottom line for me is, and how I believe Tom's article can effectively be applied, is that when it comes to salvation/assurance I am never going to tell someone "If you want to know you're saved you need to sin less." Huh??? All kinds of people "sin less" and still aren't saved. I will always and only point them back to the moment of their belief in the finished work of Christ.<br /><br />When it comes down to it, you either believe it or you don't, and that's all there is to "salvation". Growing beyond that is "desired" but not "required" for salvation.<br /><br />@David: Repentance = metanoia = "Change of Mind". The suffix "noia" is literally "mind" so there's really no debate about the word demanding more than just that. One can debate the implications of having done that, e.g. the degree to which actions may or must follow a "change of mind", but those are all subsequent to the change of mind itself.<br /><br />Peace<br />StephenOrangehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13385339200643211924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-56743299249887232412010-08-18T22:15:35.460-05:002010-08-18T22:15:35.460-05:00To All:
For related reading please see the On My ...To All:<br /><br />For related reading please see the <b>On My Walk</b> blog. Kevin Lane has just published a new article titled <i><b><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2010/08/propitiation-plus.html" rel="nofollow">Propitiation Plus?</a></b></i><br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-62366056125982810502010-08-18T15:03:30.076-05:002010-08-18T15:03:30.076-05:00But this leads us to ask whether a person can real...<i>But this leads us to ask whether a person can really be a Christian (i.e., regenerated) and commit certain other sins—heinous sins—“mortal” versus “venial” types of sins.</i><br /><br />I find this comment of Pastor Stegall's very interesting. This kind of thinking is very prevalent in the Christian community. We do seem to have a sort of "default" option that categorizes certain types of sins as more hell-worthy than others. But God does not categorize sins this way. He says that if you fail to keep one command of the law, you are guilty of the whole law. You did not have to murder someone. You could have simply done work on the Sabbath. We could go on for a long time making similar comparisons.<br /><br />But the question about idolatry and salvation does seem to miss the point and I think Pastor Stegall is right that it does so because of presuppositions. <br /><br />The concern I have with it is that it shifts the subject from the objective of the truth of Jesus Christ crucified to the subjective of what the Holy Spirit theoretically should be convicting a sinner of, according to certain presumptions that are really beyond our ability to assess. I can use myself as an example of how this is not necessarily what He is doing in salvation. <br /><br />When I heard and believed the gospel, I was also involved in some New Age type activities, which can certainly qualify as idolatry. But this did not enter the discussion at all. Neither the person sharing the gospel with me nor the Holy Spirit brought these things into the conversation. I wasn't thinking about them and they never entered my mind. They were simply not in view. What mattered was the fact that I was a sinner, and therefore separated from God. What specific sins I was involved in was not relevant. What was an issue, actually THE issue, in my salvation was simply this:<br /><br />Was I going to agree with God (get on the same page as Him) regarding my lost condition, and was I going to accept the solution He provided (Jesus Christ and Him crucified)? The answer to both questions was "yes." I have been saved ever since. <br /><br />I did eventually learn that the things I was doing were offensive to God and have since left them behind. But the fact of them being in my life at the time did not prevent me from becoming saved. I think I should also mention that there was a time previous to my hearing the gospel where I was considering becoming a witch. I mentioned this to a friend's mother, who quickly talked me out of it on the grounds that witchcraft was offensive to God. (She said it was like slapping God in the face.) I was not saved at the time and had never heard the gospel at all. However, I took her counsel and abandoned those plans because I did not want to "slap God in the face." Subsequent to my salvation I have forsaken many different sins of many different degrees of heinousness (from our human vantage point). But sandwiched in between, and wholly distinct from, these times of dealing with specific sins was the moment when I accepted God's judgment against me for my sin and placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ crucified as my substitute and was born again.<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-76856627872760525882010-08-18T12:02:41.415-05:002010-08-18T12:02:41.415-05:00David:
One more important article that is related...David:<br /><br />One more important article that is related to the repentance issue. You should read-<br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2006/11/order-of-salvation.html" rel="nofollow">Lordship's (Out-of-Order) Salvation</a></b></i><br /><br />This answers Calvinism’s extra-biblical presupposition that faith and repentance are gifts and that they precede faith in Christ. This egregious error is one of the primary reason for the development of LS’s works-based theology.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-17188586768874656552010-08-18T11:00:44.668-05:002010-08-18T11:00:44.668-05:00Hi Pat,
You said This LS position kept me in cha...Hi Pat, <br /><br />You said <i>This LS position kept me in chains of little or no assurance for years,</i> <br /><br />What a shame!! And this is just one of the evils of LS theology... it puts Christians into bondage stealing their joy and their fruitfulness which in the end only robbs glory from Christ. <br /><br />Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”<br /><br />Gal 2:4-5 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.<br /><br />Gal 5:1 <b>Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.</b> <br /><br />KevKevlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-49745288107464327192010-08-18T10:57:20.369-05:002010-08-18T10:57:20.369-05:00David:
While I appreciate your input I am suggest...David:<br /><br />While I appreciate your input I am suggesting you take a question/discussion about repentance to one of the articles in the series by Philip Evans that you refer to. Phil and/or I will be happy to engage that topic with you there.<br /><br />FWIW, I do have 23 articles at this blog that deal with repentance directly or indirectly. Most address repentance in the context of the Lordship Salvation or the Zane Hodges “<i>Crossless</i>” gospel debates. <br /><br />For a brief Scriptural view of repentance may I suggest you read the following-<br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/08/drifting-far-off-marker-part-2.html" rel="nofollow">Drifting Far Off the Marker, Part 2</a></b></i><br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/08/lordships-turn-from-sin-for-salvation.html" rel="nofollow">Lordship’s “Turn from Sin” FOR Salvation</a></b></i><br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-is-biblical-repentance.html" rel="nofollow">What is Biblical Repentance?</a></b></i> This may be the most concise and primarily what you’re looking for.<br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2006/10/relationship-between-gods-grace.html" rel="nofollow">The Relationship Between God’s Grace and Lordship Legalism</a></b></i> by George Zeller.<br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/search/label/Repentance" rel="nofollow">This Link</a></b></i> takes you to all 23 articles.<br /><br />For a thorough treatment of repentance in regard to the Lordship Salvation controversy you’ll need to get a copy of my book. There is a single chapter of 27 pages dedicated exclusively to that discussion.<br /><br />If you have any further questions or comments on repentance please post them in one of those threads.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-89218273944944364712010-08-18T07:53:14.784-05:002010-08-18T07:53:14.784-05:00Hello Lou et al,
I went back and read the "...Hello Lou et al, <br /><br />I went back and read the "Clearing Up Repentance" posts from may, and, interestingly, found no clear definition of repentance in any of them. The closest Brother Phil got was saying, "You've heard the phrases “turn from your sins” and “repent of your sins” in order to be saved. Notwithstanding there is not a single Scripture reference that uses either of these phrases in regards to the salvation of a lost person."<br /><br />Later someone, Lou I believe, added that someone coming to Christ could no longer believe in anything else to save them from their sinful condition (I loosely paraphrase). <br /><br />It would be very helpful if you would lay out a concise definition of what a lost person's repentance must entail if he indeed would come to Christ. <br /><br />Thank you kindly.<br /><br />Davidd4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-23200512083817612882010-08-17T13:42:37.368-05:002010-08-17T13:42:37.368-05:00Brian:
You wrote, "Scripturally there is a d...Brian:<br /><br />You wrote, "<i>Scripturally there is a distinction between salvation and sanctification...</i>"<br /><br />That is irrefutible yet the LS men have twisted passages meant for the born again disciple of Christ to force them into evangelistic appeals meant for the lost. They must redefine the plain teaching of Scripture this way to float LS presuppositions. Tragic!<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-86071441922795296222010-08-17T12:05:25.990-05:002010-08-17T12:05:25.990-05:00To Lou and Tom,
Thanks for the article. It is so v...To Lou and Tom,<br />Thanks for the article. It is so very important to shed light on the reality that is the Christian's relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. Scripturally there is a distinction between salvation and sanctification, yet the LS proponents would seemingly have us to believe our sanctification is complete in this life at salvation. Positionally ,yes, we are complete in Him (Jesus Christ), practically, in this life, though, we are work in progress.<br /><br />I would imagine that LS men ban Pilgrim's Progress from their libraries. They are missing out on some rich Biblical applications for the believer's walk in this life.Brian Ernsbergernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-64890384099827618142010-08-17T11:57:27.701-05:002010-08-17T11:57:27.701-05:00Eagerly looking forward to part 2! This LS positio...Eagerly looking forward to part 2! This LS position kept me in chains of little or no assurance for years, glad to see able people challenging & endavoring to correct it. The blog is excellent, there are echoes of E. F.'s "Marrow of Modern Divinity" here.<br />PCPat Coxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03545290449888109279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-56556075635793753932010-08-17T08:13:23.927-05:002010-08-17T08:13:23.927-05:00Part 2
“I would not indulge vain reasoning concer...Part 2<br /><br />“I would not indulge vain reasoning concerning the counsels, ways, and providences of God; yet I am prone to do it. That the Judge of all the earth will do right—is to me as evident and necessary as that two plus two make four. I believe that he has a sovereign right to do what he will with his own, and that this sovereignty is but another name for the unlimited exercise of wisdom and goodness. But my reasoning are often such, as if I had never heard of these principles, or had formally renounced them! I feel the workings of a presumptuous spirit, that would account for everything, and venture to dispute whatever it cannot comprehend. What an evil is this—for a potsherd of the earth, to contend with its Maker! I do not act thus towards my fellow-creatures; I do not find fault with the decisions of a judge, or the dispositions of a general, because, though I know they are fallible—yet I suppose they are wiser in their respective departments than myself. But I am often ready to take this liberty with God—when it is most unreasonable and inexcusable!<br /><br />I would not cleave to a covenant of works; it should seem from the foregoing particulars, and many others which I could mention, that I have reasons enough to deter me from this. Yet even this I do. Not but that I say, and I hope from my heart, Enter not into judgment with your servant, O Lord. I embrace it as a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners—and it is the main pleasure and business of my life, to set forth the necessity and all-sufficiency of the Mediator between God and man, and to make mention of his righteousness, even of his alone. But here, as in everything else, I find a vast difference between my judgment and my experience. I am invited to take the water of life freely—yet often discouraged, because I have nothing with which to pay for it. <br /><br />If I am at times favored with some liberty from the above-mentioned evils, it rather gives me a more favorable opinion of myself, than increases my admiration of the Lord's goodness to so unworthy a creature! And when the returning tide of my corruptions convinces me that I am still the same, an unbelieving legal spirit would urge me to conclude that the Lord is changed! At least, I feel a weariness of being indebted to him for such continued multiplied forgiveness; and I fear that some part of my striving against sin, and my desires after an increase of sanctification, arises from a secret wish that I might not be so absolutely and entirely indebted to him. <br /><br />This is only a faint sketch of my heart—it would require a volume, rather than a letter, to fill up the outlines. But I believe you will not regret that I choose to say no more upon such a subject. But though my disease is grievous, it is not desperate; I have a gracious and infallible Physician! I shall not die—but live, and declare the works of the Lord!”Look uphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16955173721902695881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-939294687981742832010-08-17T08:06:06.396-05:002010-08-17T08:06:06.396-05:00I believe this same rebuke applies to the LS propo...I believe this same rebuke applies to the LS proponent. They simply do not know what mannner of spirit they actually are. Were they actually to know and admit what they are, it would be easier to apply the Blood to it.<br /><br />Luke 9:55-56<br />...Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them...<br /><br />John Newton describes it well here in his fifth letter to a Nobleman<br /><br />Part 1<br /><br />"My last letter turned upon the Apostle's thought, Gal. 5:17, "You cannot do the things that you would." In the parallel place, Romans 7:19, there is another clause subjoined, "The evil evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing." This, added to the former, would complete the dark side of my experience. Permit me to tell you a little part (for some things must not, cannot be told), not of what I have read—but of what I have felt, in illustration of this passage.<br />I would not be the sport and prey of wild, vain, foolish, and evil imaginations, but this evil is present with me. My heart is like a highway, like a city without walls or gates! Nothing is so false, so frivolous, so absurd, so impossible, or so horrid—but it can obtain access to my heart—at any time, or in any place! Neither the study, the pulpit, nor even the Lord's table, exempt me from their intrusion! I sometimes compare my words to the treble of an instrument, which my thoughts accompany with a kind of bass, or rather anti-bass, in which every rule of harmony is broken, every possible combination of discord and confusion is introduced, utterly inconsistent with, and contradictory to, the intended melody. Ah! what music would my praying and preaching often make in the ears of the Lord Almighty, if he listened to them as they are mine only! By men, the upper part only (if I may so speak) is heard; and small cause there is for self-gratulation, if they should happen to commend, when conscience tells me that they would be struck with astonishment and abhorrence could they but hear the whole!<br />But if this awful effect of heart depravity cannot be wholly avoided in the present state of human nature. Yet, at least, I would not allow and indulge it; yet this I find I do. In defiance of my best judgment, and best wishes, I find something within me which nourishes and cleaves to those evils, from which I ought to startle and flee, as I would if a loathsome toad or a serpent was put in my food, or in my bed. Ah! how vile must the heart (at least my heart) be—which can hold a parley with such abominations, when I so well know their nature and their tendency! Surely he who finds himself capable of this, may, with out the least affectation of humility, (however fair his outward conduct appears) subscribe himself less than the least of all saints—the very chief of sinners!<br />I would not be influenced by a principle of SELF on any occasion; yet this evil I often do. I see the baseness and absurdity of such a conduct, as clearly as I see the light of the day. I do not affect to be thought ten feet tall, and I know that a desire of being thought wise or good, is equally contrary to reason and truth. I would be grieved or angry if my fellow-creatures supposed I had such a desire; and therefore I fear the very principle of SELF, of which I complain, has a considerable share in prompting my desires to conceal it. The pride of others often offends me, and makes me studious to hide my own; because their good opinion of me depends much upon their not perceiving it. But the Lord knows how this dead fly taints and spoils my best services, and makes them no better than gilded sins!"Look uphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16955173721902695881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-33442142337226992452010-08-17T06:50:52.255-05:002010-08-17T06:50:52.255-05:00*James Kime, subsequent to his original questions ...*James Kime, subsequent to his original questions that lead to this article, has been banned from this blog. Repeated personal ad hominen attacks and vitriol will never be tolerated at IDOTG.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com