tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post6590541967782808163..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Archival Series- Manfred E. Kober, Lordship Salvation: Forgotten Truth or a False Doctrine?Lou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-2130590608686206152011-12-04T08:27:44.847-06:002011-12-04T08:27:44.847-06:00Gentlemen:
I can provide you with example after e...Gentlemen:<br /><br />I can provide you with example after example from the advocates of LS themselves that affirm they have corrupted the Gospel of grace. That they have made not just an upfront commitment to works expected of a born again Christian, but also the performance of those works their condition for salvation. Here is another from John MacArthur. See,<br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/07/summary-of-lordship-salvation-on-single.html" rel="nofollow">Summary of Lordship Salvation From a Single Page</a></b></i>, which appears as an appendix in my book.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-17365621794214942362011-12-03T23:00:59.113-06:002011-12-03T23:00:59.113-06:00To All:
I strongly recommend to you the followi...To All: <br /><br />I strongly recommend to you the following series by Dr. Rick Flanders, <i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2010/09/salvation-and-discipleship-by-dr-rick.html" rel="nofollow">Salvation & Discipleship</a></b></i><br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-59760929522378282762011-12-03T22:58:04.799-06:002011-12-03T22:58:04.799-06:00Roger:
In this article you will find additional e...Roger:<br /><br />In this article you will find additional examples from John MacArthur.<br /><br /><i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/08/lordships-turn-from-sin-for-salvation.html" rel="nofollow">Lordship's "Turn from Sin" FOR Salvation</a></b></i><br /><br />The true crux of the LS controversy is that LS men believe and teach that a lost man cannot be born again unless faith has been front-loaded with submission, surrender and commitment to do the "good works" (<b>Eph. 2:10</b>) expected of a born again disciple of Christ in <i>exchange</i> for salvation, justification. MacArthur said it "<i>Salvation [justification] is for this who are willing to forsake everything</i>." There is no way to misunderstand that statement and it implication. JMac has never retracted or disavowed that.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-49528647324469275372011-12-03T22:49:04.125-06:002011-12-03T22:49:04.125-06:00Roger:
I just did. See Piper and Sproul above.
...Roger:<br /><br />I just did. See Piper and Sproul above.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-52424278093475563682011-12-03T22:47:43.412-06:002011-12-03T22:47:43.412-06:00LG:
"To me LS likes to combine the positiona...LG:<br /><br />"<i>To me LS likes to combine the positional with the progressive and say that you are not saved until you've been progressively sanctified? Does that make sense.</i>"<br /><br />That is exactly right, there are more errors from LS, but that is one of them. Consider these statements from John Piper and R.C. Sproul in turn-<br /><br />“<i>There is no doubt that Jesus saw a measure of real, lived-out obedience to the will of God as necessary for final salvation</i>.” (<i>What Jesus Demands From the World</i>, p. 160).<br /><br />“<i>Endurance in faith is a condition for future salvation. Only those who endure in faith will be saved for eternity</i>.” (R. C. Sproul, Grace Unknown, p. 198.)<br /><br />See, <a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2009/11/does-final-salvation-serve-as-cover-for.html" rel="nofollow"><i><b>Does "Final Salvation" Serve as Cover for Works Salvation?</b></i></a><br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-72618834401608405282011-12-03T22:47:22.096-06:002011-12-03T22:47:22.096-06:00LG, can you show me one LS proponent who says that...LG, can you show me one LS proponent who says that a person must have a clean life before he can be saved?<br /><br />RogerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-10488634579266009562011-12-03T19:24:34.174-06:002011-12-03T19:24:34.174-06:00Actually LS likes to redefine what Lordship of Chr...Actually LS likes to redefine what Lordship of Christ means. At the moment of salvation you have really accepted him as Lord you don't need to say the exact phrase,(If he wasn't the sinless sacrifice salvation would be vain) BUT the sanctification comes after NOT before. Sanctification is discipleship not a growing into your salvation otherwise why are we sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption? <br /><br />Eventually all unsaved and saved alike will admit Jesus is Lord. <br /><br />There are three sanctifications- positional=saved in Christ happens immediately at salvation.<br />Progressive = discipleship, growth in the knowledge of Christ.<br /> finally<br />permanent- when we receive our glorified bodies.<br /><br />To me LS likes to combine the positional with the progressive and say that you are not saved until you've been progressively sanctified? Does that make sense? So how many steps are there to salvation? My Bible indicates one- John 5:24 Believe on Christ, his death burial and resurrection.LGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-4996419026035540562011-12-03T14:39:12.132-06:002011-12-03T14:39:12.132-06:00Lou,
The lost person who believes in Christ must ...Lou,<br /><br />The lost person who believes in Christ must believe in who He really is, otherwise it is a false Christ. Believing in a false Christ will not bring about salvation. Failure to believe in the Lordship of Christ is what is truly man centered.<br /><br />What you are advocating is what is truly a recent doctrine. It cannot be supported from the NT or through church history.<br /><br />RogerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-21178124241107934102011-12-03T10:55:18.072-06:002011-12-03T10:55:18.072-06:00Roger:
The Bible draws a clear distinction betwee...Roger:<br /><br />The Bible draws a clear distinction between the doctrines of salvation (justification) and discipleship (sanctification). <br /><br /><br />JMAC/LS blends the two so that for the reception of salvation the lost man must make a commitment to live as an obedient disciple of Christ to become a born again disciple of Christ. That exemplifies the man centered, works based message of LS advocates such as John MacArthur. <br /><br />LS is a false, non-saving message that corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3) and frustrates grace (Gal. 2:21). <br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-3461298839326997862011-12-03T10:43:33.320-06:002011-12-03T10:43:33.320-06:00Lordship salvation is neither a forgotten truth no...Lordship salvation is neither a forgotten truth nor a false doctrine. From the NT and then the earliest writings, we see that people believed in the Lordship of Christ for salvation. There are some today who confuse salvation with discipleship and try to divide Christ's Lordship from Him being Savior, but that is a false dichotomy on their part.<br /><br />RogerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-12876342199420175082011-12-02T08:31:07.263-06:002011-12-02T08:31:07.263-06:00I don't know that his experience is all that d...I don't know that his experience is all that different than a lot of other people. If you are raised in a Christian home and taught to believe in Jesus with good morals by your parents, there probably won't be this radical event that changes your behavior except what is within his heart. What he described was a lot like my own.<br /><br />LarryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-64222300003284879062011-12-02T01:39:52.509-06:002011-12-02T01:39:52.509-06:00I realize the post here is not about JMac, but hi...I realize the post here is not about JMac, but his testimony at Grace To You's website is quite revealing IMO:<br /><br />http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/80-33<br /><br />For example, responding to Phil Johnson's question, "So you're saying...are you saying it would be difficult for you to put your finger on when your conversion took place?", MacArthur answers:<br /><br />"Yeah. I've never been able to do that. And it doesn't bother me. I think I'm one of those kids...I was one of those kids that never rebelled and always believed. And so when God did His saving work in my heart, it was not discernable to me. I went away to high school and for all I knew, I loved Christ, I was part of the ministry of the church. I went away to college and I wanted to serve the Lord and honor the Lord. I was certainly immature. But at some point along the line, I really do believe there was a transformation in my heart, but I think it may have been to some degree imperceptible to me because I didn't ever have a rebellious time, I didn't ever revolt against, you know, the gospel or not believe. And I guess that's...in some ways that's a grace act on God's part. So that all that wonderful training found some level of fertile soil in my heart and none of it was wasted."<br /><br />John MacArthur was "one of those kids who never rebelled and ALWAYS believed". <br /><br />No one but God knows if JMac is born-again. One thing is for sure though, there's nothing in his answer to Johnson (nor in the rest of the interview titled "John MacArthur's Life Testimony") to warrant statments like:<br /><br />"That John MacArthur is a born-again believer we have no doubt, but..."<br /><br />We will never know this side of eternity the far-reaching effects such a statement might have had in the lives of others. <br /><br />JimmyJimmy O'Rourkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14716790673405855707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-16691370131851289082011-12-01T15:09:25.973-06:002011-12-01T15:09:25.973-06:00It may exist, any time I have read or heard JMac s...It may exist, any time I have read or heard JMac stating specifically what he believes to be how a lost man is born again faith alone, belief in the cross and resurrection of Christ are not part of his formula. <br /><br />Of course, when he and LS advocates speak of "faith" or "believing" they have twisted the biblical meanings out of shape to fit their man centered message. <br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-23855245411897154982011-12-01T14:01:06.336-06:002011-12-01T14:01:06.336-06:00Excellent post.
When I read statments like the ...Excellent post. <br /><br />When I read statments like the one MacArthur makes, I have to wonder which is applicable to him; that he a) has never believed the Gospel or b) once believed but afterwards fell into the error of LS.<br /><br />Lou, are you aware of any print or audio material wherein MacArthur ever stated or gave the impression that he beleived salavation is a gift received by faith alone in Christ alone?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />JimmyJimmy O'Rourkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14716790673405855707noreply@blogger.com