tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post4717254365647946014..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Dr. Ernest Pickering, “The Separatist Cause is Not Advanced by Featuring Non-Separatists”Lou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-78510381140863976262011-02-25T18:28:19.442-06:002011-02-25T18:28:19.442-06:00Brian:
Because of it relevance and value to this ...Brian:<br /><br />Because of it relevance and value to this discussion I am reposting the submission you left earlier today.<br /><br /><br />Here is the excerpt from McCune’s book, p. 153, under the subtitle The Implementation of Ecclesiastical Separation, Investigation.<br /><br /><i>Four factors relative to the actual practice of the doctrine of ecclesiastical separation must be considered. First, separation begins with adequate investigation of the other parties or participants involved in the proposed collaboration. This means being knowledgeable of their beliefs, testimony or image that is projected, comments on current issues, and leaders, and attitudes toward fundamentalism and separatism, among other things. For example, where do they stand on some points of crucial doctrine other than the “five fundamentals” of the faith, such as the Baptist distinctive, or the doctrines of grace and salvation? Investigation would also include the others’ influence, associations, reputation (for what are they really known?), and what they condone. Also to be asked: What is the real intent behind the proposed endeavor or fellowship? Such an investigation will take time and effort but it will prevent embarrassment later, or worse, an unbiblical entanglement.</i><br /><br />We must do our homework. Sadly, far too many Fundamentalists today are not and are heading into a wasteland.<br /><br /><br />PS. Brian ErnsbergerLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-43071624404617915982011-02-25T18:25:14.714-06:002011-02-25T18:25:14.714-06:00James Kime:
This is the 3rd maybe 4th time I am r...James Kime:<br /><br />This is the 3rd maybe 4th time I am reminding you that for a pattern of bad behavior, personal ad hominem and vitriol you were banned from this blog. Attempts (such as today's) to submit comments will always be rejected and deleted without consideration of their content.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-26602496938192928372011-02-25T16:12:24.409-06:002011-02-25T16:12:24.409-06:00Brian:
Thanks for adding some info on Vlach and M...Brian:<br /><br />Thanks for adding some info on Vlach and Mbewe. It is readily available to those who wish to be informed and learn whether or not they are of the <i>evangelical</i> stripe, which they obviously are. These are the three that Doran had in his pulpit and/or seminary. So, the convergence with Dever is not the jaw dropper some saw, it is just the latest in a growing pattern of reaching to and embracing non-separatist evangelicals. Although the BIG name got a lot more attention than the first three Doran has shared a platform with in the church. <br /><br />On July 13 Dr. Bryan Ferrell was the special guest speaker for ICBC’s Summer Bible Conference. Now, the Ferrell bio is much like Vlach's- heavily weighted by and tied to John MacArthur's seminary. Here is the pertinent information.<br /><br />Dr. W. Bryan Ferrell serves as the pastor/teacher of Timberlake Baptist Church in Lynchburg, VA. Dr. Ferrell is in faculty at The Expositors Seminary (TES), which in his bio states,<br /><br />“<i>He earned a Master of Divinity in pastoral ministry in 2003 from Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary in Lynchburg, VA and later, a Doctorate in Expository Preaching in 2008 from The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, CA</i>.”<br /><br />FWIW, of the 17 faculty members at TES 10 were trained at John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary, including Bryan Ferrell.<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-75642661794262670392011-02-25T16:09:19.640-06:002011-02-25T16:09:19.640-06:00Ed:
I have to ask, just to make sure myself, you ...Ed:<br /><br />I have to ask, just to make sure myself, you do recognize that there is a difference between the <i>conservative</i> evangelical and the <i>new></i> evangelical; right? You do know that there is divide there, much like we'd divide out the <i>hyper</i>-Calvinist out from the non-hyper.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-8450209639560237682011-02-25T15:53:13.048-06:002011-02-25T15:53:13.048-06:00Ed:
I have to be a little more direct this time. ...Ed:<br /><br />I have to be a little more direct this time. In regard to Vlach, Mbewe and Ferrell you have written as though I, “<i>…identify [them] with new evangelicalism</i>.” You asked my, “<i>reasons for concluding they were new-evangelicals</i>.”<br /><br />I have not identified the three men that Doran had last year as <b>New</b> evangelicals. They would IMO be among the so-called “<i>conservative</i>” faction. Mbewe I am not as certain with as the other two.<br /><br />I’ve been very clear again for you. I think I’ve given you benefit of the doubt twice on a misspeak. So, let’s draw the right distinctions here; OK?<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-90694447020507680632011-02-25T15:12:41.500-06:002011-02-25T15:12:41.500-06:00Lou,
To answer your question: as far as I know th...Lou,<br /><br />To answer your question: as far as I know them (and I have some familiarity with all their ministries) they are neither "in" nor identify with new evangelicalism. I know students from Ferrell's church who go to Bob Jones University--is that new evangelical?<br /><br />I know fundamentalist ministries in Africa who interacted with Mbewe before he spoke at Detroit.<br /><br />I'm less familiar with Vlach, but I know of no new-evangelical cooperation he has been involved in. <br /><br />That's why I asked your reasons for concluding they were new-evangelicals.<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-43487622807968796842011-02-25T15:10:08.500-06:002011-02-25T15:10:08.500-06:00Here is the excerpt from McCune’s book, p. 153, un...Here is the excerpt from McCune’s book, p. 153, under the subtitle The Implementation of Ecclesiastical Separation, Investigation.<br /><br /><i>Four factors relative to the actual practice of the doctrine of ecclesiastical separation must be considered. First, separation begins with adequate investigation of the other parties or participants involved in the proposed collaboration. This means being knowledgeable of their beliefs, testimony or image that is projected, comments on current issues, and leaders, and attitudes toward fundamentalism and separatism, among other things. For example, where do they stand on some points of crucial doctrine other than the “five fundamentals” of the faith, such as the Baptist distinctive, or the doctrines of grace and salvation? Investigation would also include the others’ influence, associations, reputation (for what are they really known?), and what they condone. Also to be asked: What is the real intent behind the proposed endeavor or fellowship? Such an investigation will take time and effort but it will prevent embarrassment later, or worse, an unbiblical entanglement.</i><br /><br />We must do our homework. Sadly, far too many Fundamentalists today are not and are heading into a wasteland.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924581374605153929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-22340318972827822912011-02-25T14:59:15.383-06:002011-02-25T14:59:15.383-06:00To Ed,
I realize that the three men mentioned have...To Ed,<br />I realize that the three men mentioned have generated a side issue here and you are desirous of the pertinent information to identify these three named men within the Evangelical community. First, Michael Vlach comes from JMac's church/seminary, clearly self-identified Evangelical ministries. Second, Conrad Mbewe you can find his blog and sift through his archives, look at his links, etc. As he visited the States last year, he repeatedly spoke in Evangelical venues (besides speaking at Doran's church). He spoke with and, up until 2010, was directly associated with the YMCA (not exactly a Bible centered ministry). Bryan Ferrell is a name I am not familiar with.<br />I wish to add to this by giving an excerpt from Dr. McCune's book, <i>Promise Unfulfilled</i>, in another post. Which I think addresses an bit of the issue here.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924581374605153929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-21718332980079883182011-02-25T08:54:06.076-06:002011-02-25T08:54:06.076-06:00Very well then, but they (Vlach, Mbewe, Ferrell) ...Very well then, but they (Vlach, Mbewe, Ferrell) are in and identify with evangelicalism; right? <br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-67710490302794170312011-02-25T08:48:26.543-06:002011-02-25T08:48:26.543-06:00Lou,
I'm sorry, but I did want to add somethi...Lou,<br /><br />I'm sorry, but I did want to add something else for us to think about regarding Dever and fundamentalism. You indicated above that they all claim the title new-evangelical. Well, Dever actually calls himself a fundamentalist on p. 87 in the book "J. I. Packer and the Evangelical Future: The Impact of His Life and Thought." I don't know if that makes him a fundamentalist, but it could show he does not consider himself a new evangelical.<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-10941093596286343322011-02-25T08:42:17.869-06:002011-02-25T08:42:17.869-06:00Lou,
Since you requested a "two way street&q...Lou,<br /><br />Since you requested a "two way street" I will briefly share some of my thoughts on the Dever issue.<br /><br />I am aware of and have listened to his interview on Christian rap. I was somewhat surprised to hear Dever's remarks on it, since I know his church is extremely conservative in regard to music. They do not have a choir nor do they rarely do any special music because they believe the Scriptures promote congregational singing. And the focus of their service is a 50-60 minute biblical message, so they are nothing like a CCM type church (they don't have a praise band or even an orchestra...just piano and organ).<br /><br />That's what I imagine Doran is going off of (Dever's actual practice of ministry in his church) in his consideration of making a distinction between the church and the world. I've seen Doran say he's willing to cooperate to a degree with a difference in application as long as you are committed to and try to implement the principle, and he probably sees the worship of the church as Dever's commitment to and implementation of the principle even if Dever doesn't apply it the same way Doran would (i.e., Doran may disagree with Dever on the issue of rap, but doesn't feel as though Dever's stand on that issue negates his actions elsewhere).<br /><br />You obviously feel different. I would think that is an area of wisdom and discernment, not obedience/disobedience.<br /><br />So, having tried to interact with your thoughts, I'll bow out.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-63255147278519847862011-02-25T08:31:53.995-06:002011-02-25T08:31:53.995-06:00Lou,
Thanks for the offer, but I'm not really...Lou,<br /><br />Thanks for the offer, but I'm not really interested in going back and forth on Dever. My concern is that you keep accusing Detroit of having non-separatists in, but I haven't seen anything to convince me that those three men were non-separatists when they came to Detroit. Thus, I would encourage you to stop making that accusation without further proof.<br /><br />I realize my comments were a little off topic, but I didn't know where else to bring them up so I thought I'd do that here (since it was a part of the article). However, I've said what I felt I needed to say and will gladly drop it so you can continue the discussion how you see fit.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-26729039741467624762011-02-25T08:14:37.402-06:002011-02-25T08:14:37.402-06:00Ed:
On the JR Rice question, I never met the man ...Ed:<br /><br />On the JR Rice question, I never met the man and do not know the depth and reach of what you said was his rejection of “<i>secondary</i>” separation. I do, however, have some insight and experience that I’d share with you off-line. Send me an e-mail if you like. That said, had John R. Rice had the kind of associations of an Al Mohler and John Piper I would have been gravely concerned then, as I am now with Doran/Bauder/Jordan/Olson reaching out to the non-separatists in the T4G community and as Doran/Olson/Jordan have done put those men in their church/college pulpits.<br /><br />One of the flash points here is that while any objective observer can see that KB, DD, TJ and MO have changed, have lost their militancy to have their fellowships with evangelicals, they deny it. It is plain that our men have decided to tolerate, allow for and excuse aberrant theology, ecumenical compromise and worldliness that they would never tolerate or allow for in Fundamental circles. As I said above and wish to strongly reiterate,<br /><br /><b>It becomes increasingly clear that Dave Doran, Kevin Bauder, Matt Olson and Tim Jordan have made up their minds that it’s better to deal with the troubling inconsistencies of the evangelicals than to stay with the inconsistencies of certain Fundamentalists.</b><br /><br />Fine, go that way, but please do not bristle when the obvious is noted and please do not deny the obvious. And while they go that way I will continue to do all I can to call on and encourage believers to fidelity toward the God-given mandates and resist the influences of men to follow them down the winding road of compromise.<br /><br />Ed, I want to keep addressing more of what you written above, but today is pretty well used up for that. Business and family day issues take precedence. Maybe a one-on-one would be beneficial. What do you think?<br /><br />God bless you,<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-15052757491054347962011-02-25T08:12:53.830-06:002011-02-25T08:12:53.830-06:00Ed:
Thanks for getting back to me.
I really don’...Ed:<br /><br />Thanks for getting back to me.<br /><br />I really don’t mind discussing a wide range of issues in the current controversy, but we’re drifting from the main theme of this article. The discussion here is over the SI/Mungons claim that Doran, Bauder and Jordan (I add Matt Olson) practice the same separatism that Ernest Pickering articulated in <i>Biblical Separation</i>. I have cited page 229 from the book and by their actions that they have drifted from what he teaches for platform fellowship. I trust you see the contradiction; don’t you?<br /><br />BTW, the rule here is that we have a two-way street, not one way.<br /><br />“<i>Regarding Dever: it's not that I'm uncomfortable in discussing it, it's just that it is outside of my concerns in this discussion and I feel it will sidetrack them. You've repeatedly expressed concern about these men speaking at Detroit last year, so I was wondering what about them concerned you.</i>”<br /><br />But Dever is one of the main themes of this article and that is why I am steering it back in that direction. Why do I refer to the three evangelicals speaking at Detroit last year? Because in part it shows, just as at NIU, that Doran/Olson have already opened their pulpits to non-separatists and have put impressionable people at risk because of it. Our men are not just reaching out to and going where they can to hob-nob with evangelicals they are opening the pulpits their Fundamental church and schools to them. Good time to read Dr. Gerald Priest once more,<br /><br />“<i>What I fear is that we may be allowing a Trojan horse into the fundamentalist camp. And after a while, if we keep going down this track, any significant difference between conservative evangelical and the fundamentalist institutions may disappear. Fundamentalists will become even ‘nicer’ to the conservative evangelicals and they in turn will appear more ‘respectable’ to the fundamentalists. It may be that some fundamentalists desire this. But then, would they not also have to forfeit the label?</i>”<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-27213099747310218592011-02-25T07:03:10.610-06:002011-02-25T07:03:10.610-06:00Lou,
Regarding Dever: it's not that I'm u...Lou,<br /><br />Regarding Dever: it's not that I'm uncomfortable in discussing it, it's just that it is outside of my concerns in this discussion and I feel it will sidetrack them. You've repeatedly expressed concern about these men speaking at Detroit last year, so I was wondering what about them concerned you. <br /><br />You've been clear in what concerns you about Dever, but whether I agree or disagree with you on those concerns is not important when considering your concerns about the men under discussion and why you consider it wrong to have them speak at a fundamentalist ministry.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-45963793157407717002011-02-25T07:00:01.213-06:002011-02-25T07:00:01.213-06:00Lou,
I'm sorry for creating confusion, but I ...Lou,<br /><br />I'm sorry for creating confusion, but I assumed when you call someone a 'Non-separatist evangelical" that was the same thing as calling them a "new evangelical." Could you explain the difference in your mind between the two?<br /><br />I also assumed your comments about referring to themselves as evangelicals as applying to the three individuals under our discussion, since you said: "'What I’m not aware of is how you’ve determined they are evangelicals.'<br />I guess an easy answer is that because they call themselves “evangelicals.” (the "they" in my sentence was in reference to those three, so I assumed the "they" in your sentence referred to those three.)<br /><br />Regarding those three individuals being part of the "evangelical community" I suppose it would depend on what you mean by that phrase. In one sense, all fundamentalists are evangelicals. But, if you mean associated with non-separatist evangelicals, then I would be willing to say they are not a full part of that community. I am unaware of any of them publicly embracing or practicing the new evangelical philosophy. I know of no involvement with ecumenical evangelism or a repudiation of separation. In fact, they all have some ties to fundamentalist ministries.<br /><br />Now, I don't know enough about them to say they definitely practice what is often referred to as secondary separation. But John R. Rice repudiated secondary separation--would you be as concerned if John R. Rice had spoken at Detroit?<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-60648342496652938032011-02-25T00:33:54.822-06:002011-02-25T00:33:54.822-06:00Next, I’m curious why you would be uncomfortable d...Next, I’m curious why you would be uncomfortable discussing Dever in this context. After all, Dave Doran and Kevin Bauder just embraced this SBC, evangelical who teaches at the new evangelical Gordon-Conwell, sits on the board of SBTS, embraces the Rap, Hip Hop medium of (Shei Linee and Curtis Allen) as a personal choice for listening and for use in ministry, and he as virtually every evangelical rejects and refuses to practice authentic biblical separatism. <br /><br />I would encourage you and every reader to refer to <i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2011/02/rap-on-mark-dever-what-is-militant.html" rel="nofollow">The RAP on Mark Dever</a></b></i><br /><br />Dave Doran stated why he believed his speaking at Lansdale with Dever did not need to be justified. One of his guidelines was over whether or not a man [Dever], “<i>…obscure[s] the distinction between the church and the world by denying the transforming power of the gospel, by <b>embracing worldly approaches for the church’s growth and/or worship</b></i>.”<br /><br />We did learn that Dever does embrace worldly approaches for church growth and/or worship, the RAP, Hip Hop medium. Yet, Dave happily went to Lansdale to minister along side a man who has contributed to obscuring the distinction between the church and the world. Even Dr. Peter Masters wrote on this very trend of worldliness in ministry among the so-called “<i>conservative</i>” evangelicals. Doran wrote about this, but when a real test of commitment to what he wrote came with Dever and RAP/Hip-Hop, well….<br /><br />That leads to me back to reiterate the crux of this article. Dave Doran, Matt Olson, Kevin Bauder and Tim Jordan do NOT exemplify or practice the kind of separatism that Dr. Ernest Pickering taught in his classic <i>Biblical Separation</i> the section I cited here in particular. Doran and Bauder’s platform fellowship with Mark Dever this week proves the point. In Doran’s case especially- he has lost the sense of militancy as he once articulated it. Later on I will be publish another example of how Doran has changed and his militancy waned. Lord willing he can be recovered and repent. Until then I’ll do what I can to blunt his attempts to influence the next generation to follow him in compromise of biblical separation for the sake of developing cooperative efforts with his new non-separatist evangelical friends.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-12599385412169108972011-02-25T00:13:37.460-06:002011-02-25T00:13:37.460-06:00Ed:
In my previous reply to you I took my comment...Ed:<br /><br />In my previous reply to you I took my comments to apply beyond Vlach, Mbewe and Ferrell. You did note I referred to Dever. It would have been helpful had I been more definitive about how I was expanding my discussion; that I was speaking to a broader range of men beyond the three that were invited by and spoke in Doran’s pulpit and/or seminary. Nevertheless, I can’t imagine any one speaking honestly would conclude that Vlach, Mbewe and Ferrell would not be identified within the evangelical community. I would invite Dave Doran to post an article at his (no comments allowed) blog to inform his readers that these men, he hosted in his pulpit and seminary, are NOT evangelicals. That is if he believes they are not.<br /><br />Again I’ll take some responsibly for lack of clarity, but I did name Piper and Mohler specifically as “<i>New</i>” Evangelicals, I did not include Vlach, Mbewe and Ferrell.<br /><br />I’d appreciate if you would read carefully, just as I will seek to be more defining as to what I am referring. OK?<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-77997472165096473892011-02-24T22:07:38.104-06:002011-02-24T22:07:38.104-06:00Lou,
So, could you point me to where Michael Vlac...Lou,<br /><br />So, could you point me to where Michael Vlach, Conrad Mbewe and Bryan Ferrell have referred to themselves as new evangelicals? I've never seen where they have self-identified in that way, but could have easily missed it.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Ed<br /><br />PS. Dever is a side issue (he's not one of the people who were at Detroit), so I'm not going to address that.Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-34361566757053433332011-02-24T20:44:24.750-06:002011-02-24T20:44:24.750-06:00Ed:
I certainly intended for you to dig deeper th...Ed:<br /><br />I certainly intended for you to dig deeper than Google, that is a start. But let’s address your writing, “<i>What I’m not aware of is how you’ve determined they are evangelicals.</i>”<br /><br />I guess an easy answer is that because they call themselves “<i>evangelicals</i>.” Dave Doran and Kevin Bauder call them “<i>evangelicals</i>.” Beyond and more importantly they are in practice doing what is common to evangelicals and that is in large part disobey the God-given mandates for separation from unbelievers, the disobedient and worldliness. Not meaning to drop the blanket on every evangelical with each of the above. Mark Dever teaches at Gordon-Conwell a thoroughly New Evangelical seminary. That is troubling for you; isn’t it? That would be a good indicator that he is evangelical; right? <br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-12084284382214085152011-02-24T20:43:36.918-06:002011-02-24T20:43:36.918-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-82395762342052650062011-02-24T18:50:26.699-06:002011-02-24T18:50:26.699-06:00Lou,
I'm familiar with each individual, so I&...Lou,<br /><br />I'm familiar with each individual, so I'm aware of who they are. What I'm not aware of is how you've determined they are evangelicals.<br /><br />If all you are going off of is a bio, then at best you know where they are ministering (and perhaps have ministered in the past) and where they went to school. I didn't realize those things were what determined whether or not someone was an evangelical or fundamentalist. I always thought it had more to do with theological understanding and philosophy. <br /><br />If we simply went off bios, then Bauder, Doran, Olson, Jordan, etc. would clearly be fundamentalists, since they went to fundamentalist schools and served at fundamentalist ministries. <br /><br />I'm not sure it's the best approach to be accusing brothers in Christ of disobedience based simply on a bio you found via google.<br /><br />EdEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-61544984956070698692011-02-24T14:40:04.591-06:002011-02-24T14:40:04.591-06:00Ed:
Thanks for asking. I have their biographies....Ed:<br /><br />Thanks for asking. I have their biographies. Please Google each name and you will have the details.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-53724502231907848262011-02-24T13:57:40.745-06:002011-02-24T13:57:40.745-06:00Lou,
You mention three evangelicals that were at ...Lou,<br /><br />You mention three evangelicals that were at Detroit last year: Michael Vlach, Conrad Mbewe and Bryan Ferrell. How do you know these people are evangelicals?<br /><br />Ed GardnerEdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-33927765398530107442011-02-24T07:53:34.516-06:002011-02-24T07:53:34.516-06:00Victor:
Thanks for adding your insights into this...Victor:<br /><br />Thanks for adding your insights into this discussion. “<i>And the point</i>?” Exactly! We are discussing the changes, the loss of militancy for the sake of fellowship with non-separatists, of men who claim a heritage in and faithfulness to the principles of biblical separation. Men who are redefining the applications to have their convergence with a growing assortment of evangelicals, new evangelicals and ecumenical compromisers. It is tragic and a sad repeat of the kind of compromise we saw with Falwell and others who went down that winding road. These men have changed and it is shameful to hear their cries of <i>we have not changed</i>.<br /><br />Just with Dever alone, whom they are embracing this week at Lansdale, he is on the faculty/board of Gordon-Conwell a new evangelical school and with Southern Baptist Theological with ecumenical Al Mohler and the Billy Graham School. You won’t hear one word from Doran or Bauder anywhere about these associations because it might cause them to have to justify their embrace of Dever this week. And they will not say anything because they apparently see no wrong in it.<br /><br />When I saw that article by Brother Mungons at <i>pseudo</i>- fundamentalist SI I thought this needs to be answered especially because Mungons knows that book and that Pickering never would have gone along with what Doran, Bauder, Olson, Jordan are doing now. Frankly, I’m disappointed with Mungons helping SI with its historic bias and censorship to demonize Fundamentalism while promoting evangelicalism and its star personalities.<br /><br />Any objective read of either of his classics <i>Biblical Separation</i> and <i>The Tragedy of Compromise</i> and you know without any doubt that what these men do today is far from the biblical separation Dr. Pickering articulated and practiced.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com