tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post4596661409415421247..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Lordship Salvation: Lordship Advocates, Tell Us Who Defines LS in a Way You Would Agree With?Lou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-77719106252939928002010-05-10T01:58:33.464-05:002010-05-10T01:58:33.464-05:00Brother Lou,
I know your position on the King Ja...Brother Lou, <br /><br />I know your position on the King James Bible and that you do not hold to a King James Only position; but it is my belief that much of Lordship Salvation is rooted in modern day corrupt bibles. Let me give some examples.<br /><br />"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." -Romans 10:9, KJV<br /><br />"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." -Romans 10:9, NIV<br /><br />The NIV changes the text from confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus to saying, "Jesus is Lord" to be saved. Many have been brainwashed to believe in this false doctrine of Lordship Salvation just by this verse alone. Here are some others.<br /><br />"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." -Matthew 7:14, KJV<br /><br />"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." -Matthew 7:14, NKJV<br /><br />There is nothing difficult about salvation and if someone was to read this verse in the NKJV, they would be led to believe salvation is a difficult matter when it's not. <br /><br />Here is a verse that LS proponents go back to as a pet verse.<br /><br />"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." -Matthew 7:21-23, KJV<br /><br />"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." -Matthew 7:21-23, ESV<br /><br />The big words changed here are from, "ye that work iniquity" to "you workers of lawlessness". By that verse, some will be led to believe that the law has a part of saving faith. <br /><br />My point is that Satan is not only a master counterfeiter in the gospel, but in the Bible as well.ServantOfGodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06579564647501024112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-44088587270055006562010-05-10T01:44:00.306-05:002010-05-10T01:44:00.306-05:00"The lordship of Christ is not peripheral to ..."The lordship of Christ is not peripheral to the gospel message. Surrender to Christ's lordship is the only acceptable response to the gospel, and any message that does not call sinners to submit to Jesus as Lord is not really the gospel." -John MacArthur<br /><br />I don't know that Lordship Salvationists are saved. There is a such thing as misinterpretation of Scripture, but I think that many LS proponents take this too far. If Lordship Salvationists truly believe what they are teaching, then they are not saved. This is because in order to be saved, one must trust Christ ALONE - plus nothing. You can't do that if you believe that your lawful deeds are a part of saving faith. John MacArthur teaches that he believes that salvation is by grace through faith; but that faith has works included in it. May I say, works make void of the grace of God (Romans 11:6). Works are actually just the opposite of grace; one destroys another. Works and grace are like oil and water; they are not a good mix.ServantOfGodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06579564647501024112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-66567908187947964272009-09-10T16:29:20.955-05:002009-09-10T16:29:20.955-05:00Hi Lou,
I've just posted my response to Mark&...Hi Lou,<br /><br />I've just posted my response to Mark's presentation of LS theology to me. <br /><br />I've been made aware of other people who have been told they understand LS properly, but still reject LS but I haven't decided to share that at this time. I just want to try to keep the focus off of pointing fingers as much as possible.<br /><br />My new article, which relates to this thread (in case anyone is wondering why I'm posting a link here) can be found at <b><i><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-is-faith-my-response-to-ls.html" rel="nofollow">What Is Faith? My Response To The LS Presentation.</a></i></b><br /><br />KevKevlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-9294633213681930672009-08-28T14:22:27.299-05:002009-08-28T14:22:27.299-05:00Dave:
It is a genuine tragedy that LS men will fo...Dave:<br /><br />It is a genuine tragedy that LS men will force into or extract from the Scriptures these extra-biblical theories, such as regeneration before faith, to float Lordship's man-centered message. <br /><br />George Zeller has been one of the most helpful voices in refuting this and a number of other dangerous teachings that flow from Calvinistic presuppositions.<br /><br />In my Recommended Sites I have a link to <i><b><a href="http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/dangerso.htm" rel="nofollow">The Dangers of Reformed Theology</a></b></i> which I believe is a must read.<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-13595162160120229972009-08-28T11:02:02.814-05:002009-08-28T11:02:02.814-05:00Lou said:
"You can mark it down that Calvini...Lou said:<br /><br />"You can mark it down that Calvinism’s extra-biblical regeneration, i.e. salvation, preceeds (occurs prior to) faith is the underlying presupposition of LS thinking."<br /><br />Are you sure you are not misrepresenting them? Are you sure that you understand? How can you claim that you understand that when you do not believe? There IS NOT a single person who understands regeneration before faith who also rejects it, not one.<br /><br />Sorry Lou, I just had to have some fun with this. I'm all too familiar with the erroneous view of regeneration preceding faith garbage. They want so bad to reverse the order of the verse to say, "Be saved and thou shalt believe."<br /><br />DaveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-41090023643973747912009-08-28T09:01:51.077-05:002009-08-28T09:01:51.077-05:00To All:
At his blog, On My Walk, Kev to a Lordshi...To All:<br /><br />At his blog, <i><b><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-one-is-and-one-is-not.html?showComment=1251452561065#c4669389722139111032" rel="nofollow">On My Walk</a></b></i>, Kev to a Lordship Salvation apologist wrote,<br /><br />“<i>You (Bridget) may LIKE TO THINK that I don’t understand…or that I won’t consider that I’m wrong... all of that makes you feel good I’m sure, but the truth is I have examined EXACTLY what LS advocates say and have found that it is NOT biblical</i>.”<br /><br />As I read that excerpt from his extend note it dawned on me that it just might be FEAR that causes Mark Pierson and all <i><b><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2006/10/macarthurs-discipleship-gospel.html" rel="nofollow">Lordship Salvation</a></b></i> (LS) people to always cry, “<i>misrepresentation</i>,” but especially the elitist mindset of Lordship advocates that Mark underscored in that they believe no one who understands LS will reject it. If they were to admit/believe that someone who actually understands and/or articulates any aspect of LS correctly then they must conclude that LS just might be wrong. I don’t think they can tolerate that possibility, which would then suggest John MacArthur may be wrong.<br /><br />LS, just like the <i><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2009/03/believing-gospel-may-indeed-frustrate.html" rel="nofollow">Crossless Gospel</a></i> of the GES, has a very strong personality, almost cult like drive behind it. Where the GES was driven by the late Zane Hodges, the modern day rise of Lordship Salvation can be attributed almost exclusively to the personality of John MacArthur. <br /><br />Could it be that this 100% commitment to rejecting any possibility that a non-LS preacher just might understand LS is a defense mechanism that grew out of some need to protect Lordship's star apologist, John MacArthur? I’m not saying it is the reason, but it just might be an underlying current that crept in to their mindset.<br /><br />From MacArthur’s senior editor *Phil Johnson to underlings like Mark Pierson not one of them will concede that there is some Bible teacher in the world who gets LS, can articulate it, and still can give a Bible reason for rejecting it.<br /><br /><br />Lou<br /><br />*Phil is of course welcome to name any person who is on public record rejecting Lordship Salvation (LS) that he believes is fair and accurate as he defines LS in his refutation of it.<br /><br />On Monday (8/24) I sent Phil and Nathan Busenitz (JMac’s personal assistant) an e-mail about this question and they are in receipt of it. To date both have refrained from offering a name anywhere I am aware of, let alone this blog. If they have a name of someone they would agree understands LS and rejects it, I’d be happy to publish that name if they, of course, can provide one.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-62990787515995300512009-08-28T08:04:15.028-05:002009-08-28T08:04:15.028-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-68422547763605810932009-08-27T20:42:46.357-05:002009-08-27T20:42:46.357-05:00As far as I can discern it seems to be more of the...<i>As far as I can discern it seems to be more of the "regeneration prior to Salvation" business.</i><br /><br />Yep.<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-61156028061916368422009-08-27T20:19:05.264-05:002009-08-27T20:19:05.264-05:00Kev:
I have just a minute. You can mark it down ...Kev:<br /><br />I have just a minute. You can mark it down that Calvinism’s extra-biblical regeneration, i.e. salvation, preceeds (occurs prior to) faith is the underlying presupposition of LS thinking.<br /><br />More later.<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-21581210837877429652009-08-27T18:36:17.956-05:002009-08-27T18:36:17.956-05:00Hi Lou,
In the thread at my blog there's been...Hi Lou,<br /><br />In the thread at my blog there's been some more discussion about why people might not understand LS theology. As far as I can discern it seems to be more of the "regeneration prior to Salvation" business.<br /><br />It's been said over there that one can't understand LS unless God reveals it to you. <br /><br />The Bible calls the Gospel a "demonstration" of God's love. I wonder how the Gospel could be hidden, and a demonstration at the same time. <br /><br />I'm also beginning to wonder if any LS advocate could name a single teacher who explains LS theology WITHOUT ERROR. Is there someone who's work would be the absolute best example of explaining LS theology?? <br /><br />I'd really like to read something by that person. <br /><br />KevKevlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-87386852271317312842009-08-27T08:08:58.947-05:002009-08-27T08:08:58.947-05:00Hi Luke:
I am familiar with some of the men you m...Hi Luke:<br /><br />I am familiar with some of the men you mention, but they all draw from and were influenced by John MacArthur. After MacArthur passes he will IMO always be considered the father of the modern day Lordship Salvation error.<br /><br />You noted, “<i>…pushes the works salvation boundary further and further</i>.”<br /><br />It is inevitable that the followers of error will take that error to further extremes. It is much like in a family- what parents allow for in moderation, the children will take to an extreme.<br /><br />These men are simply following the natural path of Lordship Salvation.<br /><br />In any event, we will always have their shrill mantra-like cries of, “<i>misrepresentation</i>” even though we cite back to them (verbatim and in context) what they have given in print.<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-86468717837313076512009-08-27T08:01:20.218-05:002009-08-27T08:01:20.218-05:00Dear Guests:
I would have been adding additional ...Dear Guests:<br /><br />I would have been adding additional commentary in this thread, but I have been heavily engaged at Kev’s blog <i><b>On My Walk</b></i>. <br /><br />I have been adding commentary to his thread to bolster our joint defense of the Gospel against the doctrinal errors of LS. The thread I am participating in has exceeded 50 comments.<br /><br />I would encourage each of you who value a defense of the Gospel against LS to visit <i><b><a href="http://onmywalk.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-one-is-and-one-is-not.html" rel="nofollow">this thread</a></b></i> at Kev’s blog and support his efforts there as well.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-47644954949041402472009-08-26T15:49:24.077-05:002009-08-26T15:49:24.077-05:00Lou, the new big boys on the block seem to be the ...Lou, the new big boys on the block seem to be the youtube preachers. One in particular - Tim Conway. He seems to be playing a game I call "How close can you get to Rome without any of your subscribers noticing". Each video from "Illbehonest" pushes the works salvation boundary further and further. Do you know much about him?<br /><br />All I know is that thousands and thousands of people love both him and LaneCh blog (the latter is the be all and end all for anyone that loves Lawship salvation and Paul washer), yet they can't seem to see the errors...Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787764803377233058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-80906812372136457642009-08-26T14:24:36.602-05:002009-08-26T14:24:36.602-05:00Kev:
I sent e-mail to about a dozen LS men, some ...Kev:<br /><br />I sent e-mail to about a dozen LS men, some high profile in the blogs. They have the question and the link back here.<br /><br />I sent the e-mail knowing there would be little chance they'd be transparent as my 20+ year history with LS men has shown me with this question.<br /><br />Mark was not on the e-mail, he volunteered by answering it at your blog.<br /> <br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-82875263569447675012009-08-26T14:13:36.617-05:002009-08-26T14:13:36.617-05:00Jan, Mackintosh's work is stellar for sure!
L...Jan, Mackintosh's work is stellar for sure!<br /><br />Lou, there's been no names mentioned. <br /><br />Interesting... have the LS'ers been made aware of this question?<br /><br />KevKevlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-39754327918357689312009-08-26T07:33:30.427-05:002009-08-26T07:33:30.427-05:00Dave:
As I read your first paragraph above to me ...Dave:<br /><br />As I read your first paragraph above to me I was already formulating a reply in my head. Then in your paragraph two you wrote essentially what I was going to reply with. <br /><br />"<i>Never was/understood/saved in the first place</i>."<br /><br />As for Mark's reply, it IS the mantra of LS people. I am happy he articulated what they truly believe, which is, "<i>if you don't accept LS you just can't understand it</i>", i.e. "<i>you just haven't arrived like I/we have</i>." <br /><br />And of course any legitimate criticism, citing the actual teaching of LS advocates like John MacArthur verbatim and in context is always met with, howls of "<i>misrepresentation</i>."<br /><br />Such arrogance, condescension and elitism is rife in the LS community. Most don't boast it like Mark did, however.<br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-64184162069992761522009-08-26T06:08:16.735-05:002009-08-26T06:08:16.735-05:00Hi Jan,
I would be more than happy to answer your...Hi Jan,<br /><br />I would be more than happy to answer your questions about how I got involved with Calvinism and what led me out of it. I just do not want to take this topic about LS into another direction. If you email me at freegracebeliever@gmail.com then I would be more than happy to answer those question.<br /><br />Dave (free grace believer)<br /><br /><br />Lou, the comment made by Mark is typical. That lame excuse is made by many. The same excuse is used by those that reject the 5 points of Calvinism after they once embraced it. I guess it eases their conscience to believe that those that wander away from the teachings of Calvinism must never have truly believed it. <br /><br />Think about that when it comes to Lordship salvation and what they believe about those who fall into sin. You will find that they make the same exact excuse when someone wanders off into sin and doesn't return before dying. You will hear them say, "He/She was never saved to begin with." They believe that if you believe the message then you can never stray even though we have verses that teach just that and warn us believers against falling away.<br /><br />I do know with most free grace advocates that they do not stoop so low. They will admit that when a free grace believer embraces Lordship salvation that they have believed a lie. I do not know off hand any free grace advocate that will claim, "The reason he/she embraced Lordship salvation is proof that he/she never believed free grace at all. A person that truly believes in free grace would never depart." <br /><br />If anyone could talk to my old friends that I went to school with at Bob Jones University and ask, "Do you think that Dave never understood or believed in Lordship salvation and Calvinism?" then I am sure that they would laugh at such a statement because I was solid in what I believed back then. To claim that my leaving the "isms" was due to my never understanding it is just plain ignorance.<br /><br />DaveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-75237423970742637382009-08-25T18:19:26.220-05:002009-08-25T18:19:26.220-05:00By the way Kev,
I have been reading that Levitic...By the way Kev, <br /><br />I have been reading that Leviticus series by C.H. Mackintosh at Stem Publishing you recommended in the thread a couple of posts down. It is wonderful!! Thanks for directing me to it. What a blessing!<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-48264303213826196772009-08-25T17:50:11.068-05:002009-08-25T17:50:11.068-05:00My dear friend Bridget couldn't predict that s...<i>My dear friend Bridget couldn't predict that she would infact be "saved in the end" for ages.. it was only after I pushed and pushed her that she soft of said she would be.</i><br /><br />I remember that, Kev. That was an interesting conversation. Is that the one where she also said salvation is a process and wouldn't admit that someone who <i>has been</i> saved <i>is</i> saved?<br /><br />I do remember her saying at one point that she knew she would be saved in the end. But she made that contingent on the fact that the Lord was sanctifying her now and since she saw Him doing that, she knew He would finish the job. She was quite adamant that she had been justified but was very reluctant to go any further than that.<br /><br /><i>it's true TULIP doesn't feel safe, and that's a great testimony against it for the Lord has not given us the spirit of fear. He has told us to REST in Him.</i><br /><br />I know of someone who was in that position. He was almost paralyzed with fear that he wasn't really saved. His brother (the youth pastor at our church at that time), who didn't hold to TULIP, tried to help him by suggesting that if he wasn't sure he was saved he could be so now by accepting Christ crucified for him. Didn't do much good.<br /><br />On the other hand, there are TULIPers that insist they KNOW they are saved. Go figure.<br /><br />For me, if ever I have any question about my salvation (doesn't happen often) the only way I have ever found that cures it is do do just what Spurgeon did- look! I behold Jesus crucified for me and remember His assurance that no one who comes to Him will be cast out. Or, as the hymn writer says, "I need no other argument. I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died and that He died for me." His blood will not be refused, nor will the one who trusts in it.<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-22300936324497508272009-08-25T17:34:33.968-05:002009-08-25T17:34:33.968-05:00Thanks for sharing that Dave. I appreciate your h...Thanks for sharing that Dave. I appreciate your humility and openness. It sounds like maybe you weren't all that secure in your Calvinism. (?) Would you mind sharing what attracted you to Calvinism in the first place? And how did you come to reject it? Also, I wonder if you would be able to say whether you had any sense of other Calvinists maybe being insecure in their Calvinism? What do you think was the driving force in your involvement? And, if you were insecure, how did you feel about what other Calvinists might think if they found that out? Did you feel they would receive that with grace and try to help or that you were afraid to mention it to them? Of course all these questions assume you were insecure. However, I am interested in the relational dynamic you experienced in that sphere and what effect that may have had on you. If you don't mind answering, that is. :)<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-62424563053112798292009-08-25T17:08:00.979-05:002009-08-25T17:08:00.979-05:00Hi all,
Sorry to kind of "pop in" w/o h...Hi all,<br /><br />Sorry to kind of "pop in" w/o having posted in awhile... I continue to follow along but can't take the time to post much these days, hope to get back to it more often eventually.<br /><br />Anyway, as I read the struggle for FG people to get LS folks to admit that non-LS people actually might understand and still reject LS (Calvinism too), I had a thought. It kind of reminds me of a problem I see in this health care issue. Regarding health care, the "anti" side claims that various problems will result. The "pro" side says that the bill doesn't include any of those things. What the problem seems to me to be is, the "pro" side is right, their bill doesn't have any of those things. However, the policies in the bill create an environment that would likely indirectly lead to (and in some cases, would directly lead to) the very things the "anti" side is claiming.<br /><br />I see the same problem with LS/FG (Calvinism too). FGers and nonCalvinists see the logical conclusion(s) of LS/Calvinism doctrines and speak against these things. Yet LSers and Calvinists insist that they don't teach those things and therefore are being misrepresented. The problem though, is that while it is true they don't teach those things directly, yet they so obviously lead to such things, there is no escaping their conclusions. Nevertheless, they will continue to cry "misrepresentation" and "show me where I've ever said that", etc. because they don't say those things specifically.<br /><br />IMO, the lack of ability and/or desire on the part of LSers and Calvinists to acknowledge and deal with the logical end of their beliefs, is what keeps these debates going in circles, and keeps LSers from adequately answering questions about their teachings and beliefs.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990773174601680586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-10072286333876314952009-08-25T14:24:50.123-05:002009-08-25T14:24:50.123-05:00Jan,
Your point about Mark's behavior is som...Jan, <br /><br />Your point about Mark's behavior is something I explored a bit over at my blog. It's so very interesting to me that those who DEMAND someone be fully submitted to the Lordship of Christ in order to be saved themselves show so little (if any) of the Humble Saviour in their own walk. <br /><br /><br />All,<br /><br />I was at a hospital today and saw a children's book called "TULIP doesn't feel safe."<br /><br />I wanted to take a picture of it, but I thought that would be weird. <br /><br />Isn't that a true statement though? For all the "Salvation is all of God" and the Soverigenty of God being paramount... the person who holds to TULIP just plain never feels safe. My dear friend Bridget couldn't predict that she would infact be "saved in the end" for ages.. it was only after I pushed and pushed her that she soft of said she would be. <br /><br />it's true TULIP doesn't feel safe, and that's a great testimony against it for the Lord has not given us the spirit of fear. He has told us to REST in Him. <br /><br />KevKevlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-11321467087534919862009-08-25T13:11:42.207-05:002009-08-25T13:11:42.207-05:00Hi Jan,
I was too proud to admit when someone mad...Hi Jan,<br /><br />I was too proud to admit when someone made good arguments to refute my Calvinism. I would often look for some weakness in the book that I could expose and make myself feel better. If I looked hard enough then I could find something somewhere that I did not personally agree with so that I can yell to the world that so and so misrepresents us Calvinists. I often would only skim the book anyways. I would then give my review on the book and share what I found to be its weakness as a way to discard the whole book entirely. Taking the author out-of-context or embellishing what I've read was not uncommon for me to do back then.<br /><br />I would also check out that specific author books in general or his beliefs online and see if I can find errors in his theology so that I could make myself feel better that the author is probably wrong in his anti-calvinist beliefs as well. I would also share his theological errors to others as a way to discredit him. Let's say he believes in speaking in tongues then I would use that as my focal point of making him look ridiculous to my fellow believers as someone that doesn't understand Scripture. It doesn't matter that he has 98% of everything else right as the 2% is proof to me that his 98% cannot be trusted. I was such a goof.<br /><br />You have people today that will search for that 2% to entirely discredit what you say claiming that you are misrepresenting them. Lou believes in free grace but you have people out there that claim that he doesn't because they can find something that doesn't fit with the Bob Wilkin definition of free grace. Just visit Lou's book on amazon and see the negative reviews as they come often from people that haven't read his book or that simply want to find problems with the way the book was written.<br /><br />This problem with pride is often attached to an 'ism' they specifically believe or a person they follow.<br /><br />Dave (Free Grace Believer)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-70788488656386662742009-08-25T09:56:26.203-05:002009-08-25T09:56:26.203-05:00Great question! Let me know if someone answers thi...<i>Great question! Let me know if someone answers this question. I used to believe in the 5 points of Calvinism for 10 years and even read many of the top guns of Calvinism.</i><br /><br />Hey Dave,<br /><br />Did you ever feel non Calvinists were misrepresenting your position when you held to TULIP? If so, what happened to change your mind?<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-16271470154891559852009-08-25T09:54:42.924-05:002009-08-25T09:54:42.924-05:00We read Mark with this statement,
“There IS NOT a...<i>We read Mark with this statement,<br /><br />“There IS NOT a single person who understands lordship salvation who also rejects it, not one.”</i><br /><br />That was exactly the answer I expected.<br /><br />If you reject LS you must not understand it. Of course, if you did understand it you would accept it. Therefore, you must not understand it.<br /><br /><i>If there is one common thread I find among many, NOT all, Calvinists/LS men is this air of elitism, condescension, combativeness and arrogance,</i><br /><br />So we have a clear example from printed material of blatantly bearing false witness and another testimony (which account is repeated en mas) of elitism, arrogance, condescention, combativeness and arrogance. Plus more than one witness (and even a former Calvinist) who has experienced first hand the misrepresentation we have been accused of supposedly engaging in ourselves. <br /><br />Where is the fruit of the Spirit in this?<br /><br /><br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.com