tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post4404917699803681540..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Has John MacArthur Promoted the Creation of the Young, Restless & Reformed Who, “Embrace the World’s Fashions and Values?”Lou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-81257050429309346482011-11-22T22:54:25.457-06:002011-11-22T22:54:25.457-06:00What Dr Masters has said in a frank and blunt mann...What Dr Masters has said in a frank and blunt manner was what has been struggling in my inner conscience. The direction of Resolved conference worship's practices is baffling. While I don't have a problem with updated scriptural based hymns to modern instruments, why the need to create an atmosphere of a rock concert with the flashing strobe lights and rock jamming style beat?<br /><br />Going forward, Dr Macarthur and Rick Holland really need to examine whether this direction in style of worship within Resolved is truly helpful to encourage young audience with a calvinistic leaning to a life of consecration. Its just so confusing.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />GWITAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-19564698223990443712011-07-31T18:08:59.610-05:002011-07-31T18:08:59.610-05:00Jan, great thought there. The emergent group is v...Jan, great thought there. The emergent group is very much caught up with what they deem to be social justice. You will not find many social justice dispensationalists.<br /><br />TonyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-59770619188423592642011-07-31T11:53:05.577-05:002011-07-31T11:53:05.577-05:00The problem is that they do not work through scrip...<i>The problem is that they do not work through scripture to have an informed church doctrine</i><br /><br />That might very well be. They certainly do not seem to make any sense, though they use "kingdom" a lot. I'm not clear at this point on the relationship between these three streams (Emergent, YRR, New Calvinist. Though I guess you can throw Neo Calvinist in there too as it apparently is not the same thing as New Calvinism), or if there is a relationship per se. <br /><br />I have been reading a bit about Karl Barth, who seems to be rather influential in the Emergent crowd. According to one proponent of his, Barth did not like the word "church" and prefers to refer to the body of believers (I'm not sure if he used the word "believer" or not) as a community. Someone else who is a detractor of Barth's says he was a Socialist who refused to denounce Communism and claimed that there was no way Communism could be against Christianity.<br /><br />It's a lot to take in and figure out what goes where.<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-15554395970517566232011-07-30T20:51:55.998-05:002011-07-30T20:51:55.998-05:00"Yes. The New Calvinsim/Neo Calvinism/YRR cro..."Yes. The New Calvinsim/Neo Calvinism/YRR crowd are covenantal and are seeking to bring the kingdom of God on earth to one degree or another."<br /><br />Jan, I would like to disagree with this statement. The YRR are NOT covenantal as an absolute statement. Perhaps you didn't intend for it to be.<br /><br />The vast majority of them are fascinated by the intellectual appeal of calvinism IMO. They want to be smart. The problem is that they do not work through scripture to have an informed church doctrine, so they wing it or find a group that wings it.<br /><br />Those who are actually saved are woefully lacking in discipleship.<br /><br />TonyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-84771107317915957962011-07-30T20:47:32.927-05:002011-07-30T20:47:32.927-05:00Just a couple of thoughts here:
1. I understand t...Just a couple of thoughts here:<br /><br />1. I understand the use of Master's thoughts here. He is a calvinist and doesn't like other calvinists using their knowledge to justify overt worldliness. I agree with his criticism but not how he gets there. Let us not forget that Master's is not only a calvinist, but a covenantalist calvinist. His ideas on worldliness and how he reaches those conclusions are within a framework most of us reject.<br /><br />2. There seems to be some confusion about what the emergent method actually is. The ones who declared the movement dead were from within the movement itself. Driscoll's church even largely attracts dissatisfied "christians" rather than truly reaching the lost. I would dare say that his church is more conservative.<br /><br />Calvinism has no more connection to emergent than anything else. It isn't the soteriology of calvinism that drives emergent. If it was, then the vast majority of evangelical calvinists wouldn't be so opposed to it.<br /><br />3. "Reformed" is a specific theological idea. It includes being covenantalist. MacArthur is a dispensationalist. He has also preached a sermon why calvinists should all be premillennial. When I see him encouraging being "reformed", he wants people to take it to the next step and adopt a biblical eschatology as well.<br /><br />TonyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-60367972634194674652011-07-30T11:22:03.865-05:002011-07-30T11:22:03.865-05:00He understands that every person’s eternity is at ...<i>He understands that every person’s eternity is at stake and the dream of God for all mankind is in jeopardy unless we accomplish the mission of Jesus.</i><br /><br />God's last hope!!! Religion at its finest...(gag)...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-55095931454487561922011-07-29T18:47:22.894-05:002011-07-29T18:47:22.894-05:00Here is an interesting quote from Dave Ferguson...Here is an interesting quote from Dave Ferguson's blog. He is recommending a book written by his friend, Matthew Smith:<br /><br /><i>Missional is more than the latest buzzword in Christian leadership circles. Mission is what motivated God to send His people to be a blessing to the rest of the world. Mission is what caused the Father to send his Son to a lost and dying world. In the pages of this book you will feel Matthew Smith’s passion for mission. He understands that every person’s eternity is at stake and the <b>dream of God</b> for all mankind <b>is in jeopardy</b> unless <b>we</b> accomplish the mission of Jesus.</i><br /><br />So here we have God's dream, which apparently is in jeopardy and it is up to us to make it happen. Hmm. (I could be wrong but I think it was just this kind of thinking that led to the pesky situation with Ishmael.)<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-17936415173216822712011-07-29T10:40:19.505-05:002011-07-29T10:40:19.505-05:00Thanks, Jan. Always great to hear from you, and a...Thanks, Jan. Always great to hear from you, and as usual, I always learn something new through your comments: very astute observation of yours, that their writings avoid the terms "believer","saint" and "Christian".<br /><br />I have also heard the use of "God's dream". Here are two enlightening quotes from the Lighthouse article, the first one listing a few other terms they use, (keep in mind this was written in 2008, and, like an elusive virus, their vocabulary will continue to morph): <br /><br /><i>"With that in mind, what words and terms are the emerging church leaders using today? Here’s the list: awakening, emergence, oneness, God’s dream, transformation, new reformation, Kingdom of God on earth, global peace, expansive redemption, rethinking, co-creation, christ-consciousness, and imagination."</i><br /><br />and...<br /><br /><i>"While it appears that emerging is going to do another split <b>(remember when Mark Driscoll and others divided the movement into a few different groups: revisionist, reformed, and relevant)</b>, the point to keep in mind is that it is still emerging spirituality."</i><br /><br />JMac oughta know better!! His supposed ignorance alone makes me very suspicious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-56319701527455172692011-07-28T18:09:22.418-05:002011-07-28T18:09:22.418-05:00but doesn't it ultimately embrace preterism/am...<i>but doesn't it ultimately embrace preterism/amillenialism and/or dominionism?</i><br /><br /><i>There exists a disconnect somewhere which can only lead well-meaning folks into very mixed company and confusion</i><br /><br />Pearl-<br /><br />You make some great observations.<br /><br />Yes. The New Calvinsim/Neo Calvinism/YRR crowd are covenantal and are seeking to bring the kingdom of God on earth to one degree or another. They seek to form "missional communities" in which the gospel is lived out and God's kingdom can "break through" around them. They are VERY MUCH kingdom focused and you will not hear them speak except in kingdom terms.<br /><br />One thing I have noticed in their writings is the avoidance of the words "believer," "saint," and "Christian" to describe the, well, <i>believer.</i> Instead they rely almost exclusively on the descriptors "disciple" and "Christ-follower." The term "believer" is still used on occasion, but it is becoming quite non-standard.<br /><br />The thing about the New Calvinists is, they are not doing the things that got people so exercised over Emergent, like Contemplative prayer, etc. (At least, I don't think they are.) They are more doctrinally focused (provided it's Reformed). However, some of the Emergent concepts, such as being "missional," and kingdom focused are core and very much a central part of their identity. I have also seen one of them writing along the lines of "God's dream" still, too.<br /><br />JanHJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00929002821245735729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-772508314212725832011-07-28T13:42:39.547-05:002011-07-28T13:42:39.547-05:00Dave:
I agree with your assessment. Thanks for sh...Dave:<br /><br />I agree with your assessment. Thanks for sharing it. <br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-8883856604605686502011-07-28T12:01:29.327-05:002011-07-28T12:01:29.327-05:00I think it bears pointing out that Masters article...I think it bears pointing out that Masters article does not seem to indicate a causal relationship between calvinism and worldliness, but rather that some prominent American Calvinists seem awfully worldly. <br /><br />Thanks, <br /><br />David Oestreichd4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-30848000173462779652011-07-28T11:54:06.997-05:002011-07-28T11:54:06.997-05:00Anon:
This will be the first in a small series of...Anon:<br /><br />This will be the first in a small series of replies I will have to your comment above. If you want to post again, you will need to include, sign off with your full name.<br /><br />You wrote, “<i>It seems that you’re upset that these Calvinists are evangelicals and not fundamentalists. I don’t understand how it is ‘news’ to report that evangelicals are acting like evangelicals. The reality is that this surge in new Calvinism is taking place primarily in evangelical circles, so of course they are acting like evangelicals.</i>”<br /><br />It is not upsetting to me for the reason you cited, they are acting just as they always have, but their actions are worsening, which is why MacArthur, who is one of the prime forces behind the growth of the YR&R AND its worldliness, is now to admonishing them.<br /><br />The part that is disconcerting is the men who claim to be loyal to authentic biblical separation like Dave Doran Kevin Bauder, Matt Olson, Tim Jordan, et.al., but are moving in the direction of the evangelicals in principle and in practice. As I have documented many times we have ample evidence that DD, KB, MO will tolerate, allow for excuse and/or ignore both the aberrant doctrine and worldliness of the evangelicals for the sake of growing a convergence with them fellowship and ministry.<br /><br />The above and that they are also trying to influence the current and next generation of FB to follow them is why there are growing numbers in FB circles who are increasingly sounding he alarm, admonishing and moving away from Doran, Bauder, Olson, et, al.<br /><br />More to follow…<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-27722641530755912862011-07-28T11:42:11.526-05:002011-07-28T11:42:11.526-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-33215276355695848842011-07-28T09:57:30.407-05:002011-07-28T09:57:30.407-05:00Anon:
Normally I do not publish comments without ...Anon:<br /><br />Normally I do not publish comments without a name signed to it. Yours, however, I do want to answer and will later today.<br /><br />In the meantime, I encourage you to thoughtfully consider with what Dr. Masters wrote about his State-side Calvinist counterparts. It is both prophetic and profound<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-10207975965975497102011-07-27T15:30:29.133-05:002011-07-27T15:30:29.133-05:00Lou, It seems that you're upset that these Cal...Lou, It seems that you're upset that these Calvinists are evangelicals and not fundamentalists. I don't understand how it is "news" to report that evangelicals are acting like evangelicals. The reality is that this surge in new Calvinism is taking place primarily in evangelical circles, so of course they are acting like evangelicals. Also, your article reflects some naivety about the history of Calvinism and cessation views. CJ Mahaney is not the author of this. That view has been common -- though maybe not in your small circle -- for decades. Take for example Dr. Wayne Grudem. His Systematic Theology is a benchmark, and for decades he has been promoting a modern day Biblical embrace of sign-gifts, while also promoting storng 5-point Calvinism. Just some observations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-77369093340570607392011-07-27T13:52:06.829-05:002011-07-27T13:52:06.829-05:00Hi, Lou ~
I tracked down Mac's post and read ...Hi, Lou ~<br /><br />I tracked down Mac's post and read it. Perhaps slightly off topic, but I found this statement of his a bit peculiar:<br /><br /><i>"Five years later, the so-called Emergent Church is now in a state of serious disarray and decline. Some have suggested it’s totally dead. Virtually every offshoot of evangelicalism that consciously embraced postmodern values has either fizzled out or openly moved toward liberalism, universalism, and Socinianism. Scores of people who were active in the Emerging movement a decade ago seem to have abandoned Christianity altogether."</i><br /><br />Really? That's not what I've heard nor observed. In fact, a few from Mac's camp have merged with the emergent church (Piper for one), hence the term "<i>new</i> Calvinists". Further, I read an article a few years ago by Lighthouse Trails stating that the term "emergent" was to be dropped and replaced so as to throw off folks into believing it had, indeed folded. <br /><br />http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=1488<br /><br />Lastly, another point I found interesting in Mac's post was his noting with pride the fact that young people are gravitating toward reformed theology in greater numbers (being too smart to be duped by the emergent church) means that the church is getting better, not worse. This, too, is a contradiction to what scripture teaches, which is that apostasy would increase in the last days.<br /><br />Until recently, I was not acquainted with the extended teachings of reformed theology, but doesn't it ultimately embrace preterism/amillenialism and/or dominionism? And yet, there are many, many in the reformed groups who would be the first to point out apostasy and its increase via mysticism and ecumenism (as most discernment sites are reformed or support reformed teachers/teachings/LS theology - i.e. Apprising Ministries (Ken Silva); Lighthouse Trails, and many others). There exists a disconnect somewhere which can only lead well-meaning folks into very mixed company and confusion (I consider myself one of those who is beginning to see the light - again).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-92106127288538076512011-07-25T23:12:43.740-05:002011-07-25T23:12:43.740-05:00To continue your thought, Lou, what you win them w...To continue your thought, Lou, what you win them with you win them to and you must use to keep them. Church, Christianity are not consumer commodities packaged and promoted to catch the eye of a fickle lost consumer soul.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924581374605153929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-82829752534244775302011-07-25T13:53:06.969-05:002011-07-25T13:53:06.969-05:00James:
Quite the case as you describe it. What J...James:<br /><br />Quite the case as you describe it. What JMac and the others in the T4G camp is give to the "restless" the worldly entertainment they crave. So, what JMac won them with at Resolved and T4G he won them to. <br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-67776729588154481272011-07-25T13:16:41.570-05:002011-07-25T13:16:41.570-05:00Lou,
It is evident that the youth of today are mo...Lou, <br />It is evident that the youth of today are more interested in what is 'cool' and worldly than that which pleases the Lord. They are also less interested in Scriptural instruction and more tuned to intertainment as a reflection of their mode of expressing "Jesus" to the world...and the world loves it! It is compromising the direct instruction of the Lord to 'be separate' and 'friendship with the world is enmity [opposition] with God' James 4:4. More of our youth are willing to sell their souls on the alter of entertainment that to live a life distinctively different from the 'world'. What makes you different from the world Jesus Christ saved you from? is a question all of us must answer.Jamesnoreply@blogger.com