tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post390942456143336745..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Kevin Bauder’s Open Letter to Lance Ketchum: Expanding Our ReachLou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-38924513346160476072013-02-05T01:24:36.225-06:002013-02-05T01:24:36.225-06:00Brian, re: your last sentence, agreed. That was t...Brian, re: your last sentence, agreed. That was the whole thrust of my initial comment here.<br /><br />Jon Gleasonhttp://www.mindrenewers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-30171319168598012622013-02-04T14:58:37.455-06:002013-02-04T14:58:37.455-06:00Jon, appreciate your thoughts expressed here and c...Jon, appreciate your thoughts expressed here and concur with you about our inability to know another's heart as to repentance. Which also means that Dr. Bauder cannot know Mohler's heart either. Which makes his (Bauder's) statement all the more so incredulous.<br />With all that said, we should be able to see evidence of repentance in the life of the repentant one and in the case of Mohler's "repentance" for signing the MD, there's no evidence for a biblical understanding of repentance. Oh, remorse, maybe, with his one sentence in one obscure book but this lacks the marks of true biblical repentance.<br />The Scriptures remind us often that mere words spoken mean nothing unless there are appropriate actions backing up those words (James 1:22ff; 2:14-26 come to mind here).<br />My comments are not so much directed at Mohler as they are to Bauder, since it is Bauder who has so emphatically stated Mohler's repentance, not Mohler himself.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924581374605153929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-32868294585271146692013-02-04T10:15:47.899-06:002013-02-04T10:15:47.899-06:00For this who might like to see- I have a series of...For this who might like to see- I have a series of articles at my secondary blog documenting the bias and favoritism of SI. See, <i><a href="http://sharperironintheironskillet.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Sharper Iron in the Iron Skillet</a></i><br /><br /><br />LM<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-65020909412510906902013-02-04T10:11:31.929-06:002013-02-04T10:11:31.929-06:00Jon:
I like your term "endorsement creep.&qu...Jon:<br /><br />I like your term "<i>endorsement creep</i>." Once I post my article on the subject you'll see that Mohler had been walking the <i>endorsement creep</i> for years leading up to signing the MD. As for SI, 3.5 years of personal interaction with the SI team before I publicly quit the forum on my terms. <br /><br />Again, thanks for the interaction here. I do appreciate your views and Christian charity. <br /><br /><br />LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-62077562599502957302013-02-04T09:33:46.591-06:002013-02-04T09:33:46.591-06:00Hi, Lou. There's a distinction (albeit a fine...Hi, Lou. There's a distinction (albeit a fine one) between "You aren't repentant," and "Show some fruit if you want me to believe / act as if you are." The latter fits what John the Baptist said. It meets the need. It leaves no risk of overstating my case, and no room for credible accusations of overstating. It's good enough for me, anyway. It doesn't matter much, because I'm not inviting Mohler to preach in our church and he isn't inviting me to preach in his seminary, anyway. Bauder made it matter, somewhat, but I doubt we'll be swapping pulpits, either.<br /><br />At least Mohler's book statement showed an awareness of endorsement-creep that I wouldn't have known he had. I'm glad for it, as far as it goes.<br /><br />SI. Well, you are harder on them than I am, but I'm also not posting there these days. I'll leave it at that. <br /><br />Thanks for the discussion.Jon Gleasonhttp://www.mindrenewers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-69117589132018177712013-02-04T06:58:33.851-06:002013-02-04T06:58:33.851-06:00Hello Jon:
Thanks for another helpful contributio...Hello Jon:<br /><br />Thanks for another helpful contribution. You wrote, <br /><br />“<i>Instead, put me in the camp that says to Dr. Mohler, 'Why don't you bring forth fruits meet for repentance? Then we'll have something to talk about'</i>.”<br /><br />This part here, “<i>Why don't you bring forth fruits meet for repentance</i>?” is where we find our agreement, and speaking for myself, believe that for lack of the fruits Mohler’s blurb in the book is not repentance. He could easily do the fruits of repentance and has not. I do not mean simply going forward, instead he could go back and have his name expunged from the Manhattan Declaration (MD). I wonder of anyone has asked Mohler if he has made that request and the leadership of the MD denied his request. I think that would be a good sign of genuine repentance. Yet, his name remains affixed as one of the original signatories. Furthermore, from his own very widely read blog he could post a new article stating an apology for having signed the MD and repent of it, encourage others who may have been influenced by him to join him by affixing their name to the MD to repent of it. See, in my mind these are the fruits of repentance that he could have shown, but has not and I believe will not.<br /><br />Btw, once I post my new article on Kevin Bauder, Mohler and the MD we will see that Mohler signing the MD was just another example in a string of wrong decisions in which he aligned himself in cooperative efforts with and/or spoke to the advantage of Roman Catholics and still does today!<br /><br />Then you wrote,<br /><br />“<i>Many SI members insisted recently that repentance demands an apology. As near as I could see with a quick scan, no one took that up on Mohler. As I’ve written recently, apologies are but one, and not the main, fruit of repentance, but those who ‘fulminated’ on it before have gone silent....</i>”<br /><br />Standard operating procedure at SI. Duplicity, as Alex G has pointed out in the KB <i>Open Letter</i> thread even now. Duplicity, selective application of Bible principles and accountability. SI is notorious for playing favorites. Al Mohler, Kevin Bauder are among the preferred and protected of the SI crowd from Aaron Blumer, Jim Pet and right on down the list of admins and moderators, no to mention most of the remaining folks who still post there. <br /><br />Thanks again for your input. We appreciate and value your insights.<br /><br /><br />Lou<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-16048068962015058912013-02-04T02:20:13.328-06:002013-02-04T02:20:13.328-06:00Well, gentlemen, as they say, "it's beyon...Well, gentlemen, as they say, "it's beyond my pay grade" to determine whether someone I have never talked to is truly repentant or not. God knows the heart. So don't put me in the "Al Mohler has not repented" camp. Instead, put me in the camp that says to Dr. Mohler, "Why don't you bring forth fruits meet for repentance? Then we'll have something to talk about." If another Declaration came along, he might sign, he might not -- but we'd have more evidence one way or another. There's enough here to (maybe) hope that Al Mohler has had a true change of thinking, but hope is about all we can muster. Dr. Bauder might say to his friend, "You know, you've not exactly made it easy for me to convince people on this point." <br /><br />Many SI members insisted recently that repentance demands an apology. As near as I could see with a quick scan, no one took that up on Mohler. As I've written recently, apologies are but one, and not the main, fruit of repentance, but those who "fulminated" on it before have gone silent....<br /><br />Dr. Bauder's militancy on Mohler's repentance reminded me of the old adage that those who have the weakest case are usually the ones that shout the loudest. His case was pretty weak, he shouted pretty loud. <br /><br />But that's a good reminder for all of us, isn't it? <br />Jon Gleasonhttp://www.mindrenewers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-57406028157555136472013-02-03T22:07:53.056-06:002013-02-03T22:07:53.056-06:00Jon, had those same thoughts as I read Dr. Bauder ...Jon, had those same thoughts as I read Dr. Bauder comment about Mohler and the signing of the MD. Here's what I posted under the first article in this series, hopefully Lou won't mind reposting this.<br /><br />Dr. Bauder has addressed that in a comment over at SI that quite frankly leaves me dumbstruck. Dr. Bauder has cheapened the word metanoia, by his declaration that Dr. Mohler has "repented" of his signing of the Manhattan Declaration because he (Dr. Mohler) stated this in a book,<br />Fifteen years later, I did sign the Manhattan Declaration, a statement of common concern on the issues of the sanctity of human life, the integrity of marriage, and the defense of religious liberty. I had been present in meetings leading up to the document’s release, and I was thrilled with its masterful defense of those three endangered affirmations. I was moved by its affirmations that we will not bend the knee to any earthly power that calls us to deny the faith. I was instructed by the quality of the document’s theological, biblical, and moral thinking.<br />I had great hope that the document and the movement would steer a new path that would accomplish a brave moral, consensus with confusing the theological issues at stake. Nevertheless, in light of subsequent statements, I came to believe that the Manhattan Declaration had also crossed the line into unwarranted and unbiblical recognition of the Roman Catholic Church. {What about the unbiblical recognition of the Orthodox Church? My thought not Dr. Mohler’s} We should not be embarrassed to state that we stand together when indeed we do—and on these crucial issues of concern it is especially important that we stand together with courage. But no sense of cultural crisis should blind us to the priority of the gospel. The moral arguments presented in the Manhattan Declaration are eloquent and powerful statements of Christian moral conviction and discernment. The statement is a brave call for men and women of conviction to defend life, marriage, and religious liberty with courage. When it comes to evangelicals and Roman Catholics, the difficulty lies in crafting a statement that acknowledges the Christian truths that are expressed and commonly cherished without requiring a mutual recognition of churches. (taken from pp. 85, 86 of Four Views on The Spectrum of Evangelicalism)<br />Really! That’s biblical repentance? This one sentence encased in two paragraphs raving about the declaration? It is to be noted that at the MD website on their list of signatories is Dr. Mohler’s name on the bottom of page 9. One would think that if a man had indeed come to the conclusion that signing something was wrong that he would then do what he could to have his name removed from said document, yet that is not the case with Dr. Mohler and the MD. This being presented as an illustration for biblical repentance is quite laughable if it were not of a serious nature. I would trust that we would agree that Judas Iscariot was NOT repentant, yet even he returned the money given him to betray Jesus Christ. Dr. Mohler has a weak statement in an obscure book which has nothing to do the MD and Dr. Bauder lifts this up as an example of biblical repentance. Dr. Bauder, do you really want to be taken seriously? Then please stop straining at gnats and swallowing camels when it comes to evangelicals.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924581374605153929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-74217813243602580872013-02-03T18:36:21.912-06:002013-02-03T18:36:21.912-06:00Jon:
You have articulated what quite a few of us ...Jon:<br /><br />You have articulated what quite a few of us have been struck by on this one. Kevin Bauder certainly went to the mats for Al Mohler and try as we might, we find nowhere, other than the obscure book Bauder co-wrote where Mohler mentions signing the Manhattan Declaration (MD) as a mistake. And I am talking about basically one sentence buried in a glowing commentary on the MD itself. <br /><br />Furthermore, I have asked two persons to help me research and find anywhere on the Internet where Mohler apologizes for and repents of having signed the MD. Nothing yet!<br /><br />Not withstanding Bauder’s condemnation I will say it again- What we read in the book is NOT “<i>biblical repentance</i>.” A first year preacher boy, through 1st semester Greek class would know enough to recognize that what Mohler wrote does not fit what we know repentance to be. <br /><br />I’ll stop there because I am well into a new major article to address this issue.<br /><br />I do appreciate that you saw and have publicly noted the obvious here.<br /><br /><br />Lou<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-30356084907121945192013-02-03T15:47:00.952-06:002013-02-03T15:47:00.952-06:00Hi, Lou. I haven't been following this closel...Hi, Lou. I haven't been following this closely, but read through some of the comment discussion on SI. I was struck by Dr. Bauder's statement about Al Mohler's repentance over the Manhattan Declaration, and his strong condemnation of anyone who says Mohler hasn't repented.<br /><br />Mohler has no statement on his own website, that I could find, repudiating the MD, but his strong defence of signing it is still there, unchanged. Dever opposed it, they are leaders in the same denomination, and Dever was surprised by Mohler's statement about MD that Bauder cited. There doesn't seem to be ANY public statement by Mohler about his changed view of the Manhattan Declaration except for one statement in one relatively obscure book. Search the Internet for negative statements about the MD by Mohler and you'll look long and far. It appears that Mohler trumpeted his signing of it, and whispered his recantation, and most people don't know about the latter.<br /><br />I'm not going to say Mohler hasn't repented -- who knows the heart of another person, anyway? But I'd certainly want a whole lot more evidence of real repentance before I'd start declaring anathemas and separation from someone who isn't persuaded. Dr. Mohler could at least put a disclaimer at the end of his web article defending MD -- or something. When you repent, don't you want to set the record straight in the places where you've gone astray? Why does Dr. Bauder feel it necessary to be so vehement on his behalf?<br /><br />I wonder if Dr. Bauder would "go to the mat" for a fundamentalist who opted for "quiet repentance" the way he has for Mohler. I've been very patient with Dr. Bauder (I'm sure you'd say "too patient" :)) but this one really disappointed me.<br /><br />Jon Gleasonhttp://www.mindrenewers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-16717630193454544032013-02-01T12:15:32.024-06:002013-02-01T12:15:32.024-06:00I am gratified to know that you've found this ...I am gratified to know that you've found this article/series helpful. I do appreciate your input.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-87825986634865126792013-01-31T18:09:39.883-06:002013-01-31T18:09:39.883-06:00In the gospel of John, Chapter two, Christ did not...In the gospel of John, Chapter two, Christ did not have any kind of dialogue with the individuals who were disecrating the Temple, He simple expelled the individuals from the Temple. Christ had no dialogue, no conference, simple confrontation. Though as a New Testament Christian, I am far from sinless. But what an example that Christ set. Confrontation is Biblical, Militancy is Biblical. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com