tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post3571381032713546615..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: Kevin Bauder to Choose Between Ernest Pickering and John MacArthurLou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-10760200569119491592013-03-20T07:24:34.557-05:002013-03-20T07:24:34.557-05:00Don:
One more thought. You might be hanging on at...Don:<br /><br />One more thought. You might be hanging on at SI for influencing the lurkers.<br /><br />Several men who are friendly to the fundamentalism that you and I appreciate have long since stop participating at SI. Like you, and I trust many of the others who quit SI, were there to in part trying to speak to the lurkers. I stayed at SI as long as I did to influence the lurkers, but I knew when it was time to get out. I quit them (on my own terms) once I figured it was more like the <i>first cousin of pearl before swine</i> to participate with the SI team and the <i>angry</i> former yf's that post there. I did not stay long enough to let them use me to keep their threads active, to advance their agenda and besmirch fundamentalism.<br /><br />You may not like the sound of this, but you have been used and played by Kevin Bauder. Why do you think Bauder ignores or endlessly redefines your questions? I hope you have come to realize what is going on there by now and will stop being part of that fiasco. <br /><br />By your participation you are keeping SI active and helping them advance SI’s revisionist history, their anti-fundamentalist agenda and promotion of the so-called “<i>conservative</i>” evangelicalism. Why don’t you join the men who have quit SI? You know the men I refer to, most of whom quit when I did around the time SI transitioned to the current look format. Others in recent months.<br /><br />With the downward spiral of SI I wouldn’t be holding out much hope for capturing lurkers. SI hopes and I am sure are privately encouraging you to stay with them. They need you much more than you might realize.<br /><br />Btw, if they truly appreciated your viewpoint why have they never invited or allowed your blog to appear in the SI Blogroll? Look at the make-up of the SI Blogroll, hardly the friends of authentic, separatist fundamentalism, is it? Doesn’t that tell you something?<br /><br />Nuff said.<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-35476848779780721792013-03-19T07:22:47.921-05:002013-03-19T07:22:47.921-05:00Don:
Thanks for that clarification. You added, &q...Don:<br /><br />Thanks for that clarification. You added, "<i>It is also more than a little wearying trying to have a conversation when the other guy has to take three whole posts to answer one</i>."<br /><br />Nevertheless, it was a valid question. You should have held him accountable and insisted on a direct, unvarnished answer, which from my chair you have yet to do with any any point that you've raised. Instead, he is maneuvering, forcing you to back down and/or he redefines your questions until he either neuters your questions or can answer them to his advantage. IMO, and that of others, you are getting non-answers, you are being used by him to incessantly attack the FBFI and certain of its members, and he is railroading the entire discussion to advance his own agenda throughout. This has not been a debate! You would do well to drop out, let him have his say, which he has been doing and will continue do no matter what you try to hone in on.<br /><br />Final thought: Why do you participate at SI when all that is happening there is 1) to the detriment of the fundamentalism that you try to stand for and that SI is primarily conduit for 2) the advancement of the <i>new wave</i> of New evangelicalism that Bauder, Doran, Jordan, Olson as well as Andy Naselli, Bob Bixby, Ben, Dan Burrell and Steve Davis are advancing?<br /><br />Your participation is an enabler of SI's agenda, and because of you, achieving in small measure.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-50767764094409319692013-03-18T23:15:39.681-05:002013-03-18T23:15:39.681-05:00Just wanted to add a word here to clarify why I de...Just wanted to add a word here to clarify why I decided to back off on the Pickering question. While I brought it up to show up Kevin's inconsistency in demanding of the FBFI something that he won't do for Central, the fact is, I like Dr. Pickering and don't think there is anything to apologize for. I felt rather cheap trying to get him to apologize for something I agree with.<br /><br />I think my point did illustrate his inconsistency, but what else can be said? You can't make a guy debate on your terms, he'll debate on his own terms.<br /><br />It is also more than a little wearying trying to have a conversation when the other guy has to take three whole posts to answer one.<br /><br />Maranatha!<br />Don Johnson<br />Jer 33.3Don Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03332212749734904541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-12636248325939741482013-03-06T10:30:33.263-06:002013-03-06T10:30:33.263-06:00Thanks for the comments and encouragement. While B...Thanks for the comments and encouragement. While Brother Johnson is a sharp man he would do well to cut this off. <br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-31480069414104068592013-03-06T09:52:08.658-06:002013-03-06T09:52:08.658-06:00Lou,
Your observation is right on target. Having ...Lou,<br /><br />Your observation is right on target. Having followed this discussion and the previous ones concerning Matt and his new direction at NIU, it was well said that honesty is seriously lacking. The parallel with liberal vs. conservative politics is a good observation. I was wondering why it was taking so long for someone to mention it. These men who are moving will never engage in an honest, direct discussion. They can't because they know that they can't support their new positions from Scripture or from the rich history of the institutions they are now destroying. Brother Johnson is a sharp man but Bauder is crafty. I was disappointed to see Don back-off. I've known Matt for close to 30 years. His declarations of remaining "unchanged" reveal nothing less than a serious lack of integrity. I appreciate your efforts and those of others like Don who will at least stand up and be counted. DanSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-30651266599509766042013-03-05T07:00:42.459-06:002013-03-05T07:00:42.459-06:00Len:
It’s not really bait-n-switch. Many of knew...Len:<br /><br />It’s not really bait-n-switch. Many of knew from the star that Kevin Bauder was not about to put himself on an even playing field with Pastor Don Johnson. There was/is no way KB would allow Don Johnson to have any control of the discussion whatsoever. You are right that Kevin Bauder has been very political. We see the same kind of thing on FOX News when, for example, you watch Sean Hannity ask a liberal politician a direct question and no answer is given to that question. Hannity will work that guest for a direct answer. Don Johnson is no Sean Hannity and it clearly showed throughout.<br /><br />Only in the last day or two I saw Don essentially throw up his hands in frustration trying over and over again and failing every time he tried to get Bauder to answer questions without redirecting redefining or ignoring questions put to him. IMO, Don was naive to think Kevin Bauder was going to give clear, unvarnished answers. Unfortunately all we saw in their exchanges was Kevin Bauder playing and using Don to his own advantage. The pattern was Don asks a question; Bauder would not answer without repeatedly asking for further clarification, redefining the question so that finally he could answer his own question to bolster his own agenda. Don would have done well to have not gotten into this futile exercise in the first place and I hope, by now, has realized he needs to drop out.<br /><br /><br />LM<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-90770515024665113442013-03-02T20:00:03.879-06:002013-03-02T20:00:03.879-06:00Lou,
It seems that Mr. Bauder keeps using the &quo...Lou,<br />It seems that Mr. Bauder keeps using the "bait and switch" approach to Mr. Johnson's questions. He [Mr. Bauder] sure knows how to use a lot of words to not answer a question. He would make a wonderful politician! <br /><br />Len PeelerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-31377431205062857162013-02-27T18:56:53.269-06:002013-02-27T18:56:53.269-06:00I have to believe Dave Doran and Kevin Bauder know...I have to believe Dave Doran and Kevin Bauder know exactly what Lordship salvation is. MacArthur wasn't the only author to ever put forth that idea. If they've been to T4G then they have no doubt heard it loud and clear. <br /><br />I think part of the problem is that Fundamentalism has included those with a more Reformed stance. What happens though when some of these more Reformed men gravitate toward conservative evangelicals? Is there going to be a divide between the Reformed and non-Reformed in fundamentalism? Where will that leave those who are not Reformed but are moderately Calvinistic? It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.<br /><br />For me, I think holding a free grace, non-Calvinist, non-Arminian type view of salvation puts me into a rather small minority. That said, it doesn't matter. We need to stay tethered to the Bible and Biblical theology no matter what anyone else does (fundamentalists included).Jim Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04206814540235700990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-48972456211025265832013-02-25T22:17:56.114-06:002013-02-25T22:17:56.114-06:00Well Brian: I do agree with what you noted here. ...Well Brian: I do agree with what you noted here. I have that pamphlet and would have been happy to send a copy to Don and Kevin. However, this has become a moot point. Don Johnson has decided to drop it. I'll say nothing more about Don's reversal from his earlier, multiple requests to Kevin that he answer that question.<br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-82806835162884639842013-02-25T14:04:50.448-06:002013-02-25T14:04:50.448-06:00Lou,
I find part Kevin Bauder's now initial re...Lou,<br />I find part Kevin Bauder's now initial reply to Don Johnson's reiterated questions a little amusing. In his reply Kevin Bauder notes that he is looking for a copy of the pamphlet by Pickering. How is it that he hasn't found a copy yet? This pamphlet was published by Central Seminary, which is where Kevin Bauder works. This was a pamphlet by a then sitting president which, again, the seminary published and a copy can't be found!? Doesn't even the library possess a copy or two or three? Granted, Bauder did post his comment at SI at 10:26am this morning and he was out of town for the extended weekend and maybe he was too busy to get to the library before writing his comment. But he does give us the impression that he has at least made some initial effort to locate a copy of the pamphlet but to no avail yet. Hopefully he will find a copy soon and will actually answer Don Johnson's question rather than replying with the non-answer answers he has been giving of late.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08924581374605153929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-65558795115429656652013-02-24T22:40:03.847-06:002013-02-24T22:40:03.847-06:00Tyler:
I hope you find my book helpful. Please u...Tyler:<br /><br />I hope you find my book helpful. Please use what you glean from it to help others be able to recognize and reject the errors of Lordship Salvation. Sadly, a great many do fall into the trap of LS.<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-27282197409005324882013-02-24T14:34:50.531-06:002013-02-24T14:34:50.531-06:00Jim:
You said, “Bauder is being made to finally c...Jim:<br /><br />You said, “<i>Bauder is being made to finally come out and clearly state what he believes on this issue</i>” Well, he hasn’t clearly stated anything yet. Frankly, based on several years of reading his articles and discussion with various men who are familiar with Bauder’s style I/they expect KB to take from the political liberal’s game book and post a long, wordy response in which he prevaricates (beats around the bush) his answer, never really answering at all but sounding oh, so good and scholarly, to the KB faithful. Actually, I will not be at all surprised if he takes a pass entirely on Don Johnson’s Pickering, MacArthur, and Lordship Salvation (LS) question.<br /><br />Related note on, “<i>...clearly state what he believes on this issue</i>.” July 16, 2010 at Gordon Phillips’ blog we had Dave Doran engaged in a thread discussion. This was under Gordon’s article, <a href="http://faiththeologyministry.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/there-is-a-difference-and-its-a-name-changer/" rel="nofollow"><i>There is a Difference and It’s a Game Changer.</i></a><br /><br />In the thread I asked Dave to “<i>come out openly [for or] against the interpretation of the Gospel commonly known as Lordship Salvation (LS)</i>.” Dave’s response was, “<i>I have never read any of MacArthur’s books on the subject</i>.” See, <i><a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2010/07/dave-doran-ive-never-read-any-of.html" rel="nofollow">this article</a></i> for details.<br /><br />That was how Dave left it, except for a small series of personal attacks as he left the scene. Imagine it- no answer whatsoever on the hallmark theology of the most widely know, read and listened to advocates of LS. Dave Doran is leader of a seminary and was/is not able to give an opinion or discuss what LS is? This is the pattern among the <i>new wave</i> New Evangelicals (Bauder, Doran, Olson and Jordan) still circulate in some segments of fundamental circles. Lavish praise for the evangelicals, tolerant and ignore on any of their doctrinal aberrations, castigate fundamentalism with the broad brush and avoid any clear articulation of any hot potato issue. LS is the hottest of them all!<br /><br />LS is the rally point for them with their LS counter-parts in the evangelical community. No matter how they answer the LS question they are going to alien at least one large segment of believers or another and I don’t think they want to do that with either. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to get any kind of clear, unvarnished answer from these men on Lordship Salvation when asked any precise, unambiguous question on the subject. They simply will not answer the LS questions. They’d sooner attack the questioner than answer the question.<br /><br />To reiterate: In regard to Don Johnson’s question I believe Kevin Bauder will either prevaricate (beat around the bush) or never really answer the question at all.<br /><br /><br />Lou<br /><br />PS: Kevin Bauder once knowingly misrepresented a vast segment of fundamentalists who utterly reject Lordship Salvation as defined by John MacArthur s well as every evangelical advocate of LS. See, <a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2010/08/do-fundamentalists-evangelicals-believe.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Do Fundamentalists and Evangelicals “believe, preach and defend the [same] gospel.”</i></a>Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-83090319491437320302013-02-24T14:11:08.923-06:002013-02-24T14:11:08.923-06:00Jim:
I agree with you - I was repeating the chara...Jim:<br /><br />I agree with you - I was repeating the characterization I heard. They were not discussing "free grace theology," but the allegedly "free" Gospel non-LS folks advocate. Poor choice of words on my part in the earlier post. <br /><br />TylerRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-27087686879913597692013-02-24T11:07:36.219-06:002013-02-24T11:07:36.219-06:00Lou,
I am glad someone like Bauder is being made ...Lou,<br /><br />I am glad someone like Bauder is being made to finally come out and clearly state what he believes on this issue. I wish more in Fundamentalism would do the same. Let's stop with all the hiding and stand for what we actually believe. I get the feeling that some care more about building broad constituencies than taking a clear stand.<br /><br />Tyler R,<br /><br />"Free grace" theology is not"Get your ticket punched and live like you did before. You're eternally secure!" That is a mischaracterization.<br /><br />I see the issue here to be this: Does Kevin Bauder indeed agree with MacArthur or Pickering? Is it faith only or faith + anything else?Jim Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04206814540235700990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-85747699999539490982013-02-24T10:58:06.374-06:002013-02-24T10:58:06.374-06:00I appreciate your work on LS; I've browsed thr...I appreciate your work on LS; I've browsed through your site a bit this morning. I have dealt with LS a bit; I had a "discussion" with three folks in our church who advocated it. They admitted their concern was that the Gospel preached by non-LS folks was cheap. My response was to ask them to explain how they would present the LS version of the Gospel to a 9-yr old who asks about salvation. The result was a tortured, pseudo-theological explanation that confused even me. To their credit, they were not theologians, I just believe they were taken in by false doctrine. The dividing line is the ordo salutis. I'll probably order your book and take a look at it. I enjoy your blog; I noticed you are critical of the current crop of "big name" fundamentalists but favor Rolland McCune. I have his three volume Systematic Theology and it is probably the best set in my library. He is simply excellent. I wish I could have had the opportunity to study under him. <br /><br />TylerRstarlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15440513675608659151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-61626650858305043572013-02-24T08:37:10.024-06:002013-02-24T08:37:10.024-06:00The LS/Calvinists’ answer to the spiritually dead ...The LS/Calvinists’ answer to the spiritually dead is not the convicting and convincing work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11). Instead they appeal to the <i>extra-biblical</i> teaching that regeneration occurs prior to and apart from faith in Christ. I have addressed that issue in my book and at this blog. The best I have available on the subject, however, comes from Pastor George Zeller. <br /><br />I draw your attention to the first of two articles by Ps. Zeller, <a href="http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/danger03.htm" rel="nofollow"><i><b>The Danger of Teaching that Regeneration Precedes Faith.</b></i></a> <br /><br />See also my article, <a href="http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2006/11/order-of-salvation.html" rel="nofollow"><i><b>Lordship’s (Out-of-Order) Salvation</b></i></a><br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-60948746059623257902013-02-24T08:23:03.234-06:002013-02-24T08:23:03.234-06:00Pickering is certainly correct in his distinction ...Pickering is certainly correct in his distinction of "salvation is free; discipleship is costly." How can somebody who is spiritually dead (Eph 2:1-2) agree to surrender all prior to regeneration? A willingness to live for Christ will only come through sanctification - this is after salvation. <br /><br />I have heard some 5-point Calvinists accuse folks who do not agree with Lordship Salvation of teaching an almost "free grace" theology. "Get your ticket punched and live like you did before. You're eternally secure!" I believe LS folks are seeking to guard against this at the expense of the clear teaching of the Gospel - repent and believe. The mark of a truly saved person will RESULT in sanctification (Titus 2:11-14). Some folks grow in the knowledge of God better than others, but the heart of the person is my point. LS folks impugn those who disagree with them by insisting, in some cases, that ours is a cheap Gospel. <br /><br />TylerR Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-76468495947570585422013-02-23T20:51:41.002-06:002013-02-23T20:51:41.002-06:00Today, Saturday, 2/23 we have Don Johnson drawing ...Today, Saturday, 2/23 we have Don Johnson drawing Kevin’s attention once again to the Pickering/MacArthur question. At SI don wrote,<br /> <br />“On the other hand, I raised the issue of Dr. Pickering’s statement about MacArthur while he was president of Central - it seems to me to be a parallel issue. You [Kevin Bauder] haven’t addressed it at all. It is all very well to say that we must deal with sins of the past as a general principle, but the reason we sidestep them, it seems to me, is that 1) we think the issue is presently a non-issue because it is long in the past; 2) we think the issue is a non-issue for us because we weren’t a party to it; 3) we think that there are some aspects of the issue that were merited on the ‘sinning side’ (as it were). Are any of those the reasons why YOU KEEP AVOIDING the Central published pamphlet that said <i>MacArthur changed the terms of the gospel</i>?” (CAPS mine)Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-75109198860651640772013-02-23T20:49:52.122-06:002013-02-23T20:49:52.122-06:00With this I am going to close the debate over the ...With this I am going to close the debate over the theology of the gospel here. The crux of this article is that a specific, unambiguous question has been put to Kevin Bauder. To date he has not even so much as acknowledged it. More on that in the next.<br /><br />To demonstrate how sharp the divide is over what are the terms of the saving message of Gospel between Ernest Pickering and John MacArthur read the following. Then you will see that the question to Kevin Bauder is a major issue that cannot be swept aside. The following appears on p. 70 of my book, <i>IDOTG</i>. What follows from Dr. Pickering is from the same booklet in which he reviews MacArthur's <i>TGATJ</i>. The same booklet in which Don has brought to Kevin's attention that JMac has <i>changed the terms of the gospel</i>.<br /><br />Begin Excerpt... <br />Dr. Ernest Pickering in his review of the original <i>The Gospel According to Jesus</i> stated,<br /> <br />“Salvation is free; discipleship is costly. Salvation comes by receiving the work of the cross; discipleship is evidenced by bearing the cross (daily submission to the will of God). Christ here is not giving instructions about how to go to heaven, but how those who know they are going to heaven should follow Him.”<br /> <br />Following is another quotation from the chapter entitled, “The Cost of Discipleship” in MacArthur’s <i>The Gospel According to Jesus</i>:<br /> <br />“Let me say again unequivocally that Jesus’ summons to deny self and follow him was an invitation to salvation, not . . . a second step of faith following salvation. . . . Those who are not willing to lose their lives for Christ are not worthy of Him. . . . He wants disciples willing to forsake <i>everything</i>. This calls for full-scale self-denial—even willingness to die for His sake if necessary.”<br /> <br />The latter portion of [MacArthur’s] quotation, “He wants disciples willing to forsake everything,” would be fine if John MacArthur stated it in the context of those persons who already believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, were saved by grace through faith, and sought to live as fully surrendered disciples of Christ. MacArthur, however, converts the cost of discipleship into a necessary expense in the form of an upfront commitment to discipleship for the reception of eternal life.<br />END Excerpt<br /><br /><br />LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-90828866957766165882013-02-23T20:39:37.164-06:002013-02-23T20:39:37.164-06:00Dave:
Sorry, if I misunderstood your meaning. A...Dave:<br /> <br />Sorry, if I misunderstood your meaning. As Dr. Pickering noted, John MacArthur’s LS is "<i>changing the terms of the gospel</i>.” There is only one saving message for the salvation of lost mankind. Dr. Pickering says that John MacArthur had changed the terms of the saving gospel. LS as MacArthur and/or T4G define is not merely arriving at a "<i>wrong conclusion</i>.”* LS is a serious error, a heretical interpretation the saving message of Jesus Christ.<br /><br /> <br />LM<br /> <br />*Btw, as you might recall Kevin Bauder has recently declared that LS as the T4G men define it is for him )Bauder) a strongly worded Lordship Salvation.” Kevin offers no evidence of or comparison to another LS to prove his point. I am doing the research on this and I will have an article with my results on Kevin’s declaration on T4G’s alleged “<i>strongly-worded Lordship Salvation</i>.”Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-36920847794128655762013-02-23T19:24:42.014-06:002013-02-23T19:24:42.014-06:00Lou - I don't have pickering's book, but w...Lou - I don't have pickering's book, but where did he ever say anything so strongly as, "Lordship Salvation, as John MacArthur or any of the T4G men defines it, is a false non-saving message that corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ?" The quote you offer says nothing this strongly against MacArthur. That is why you are created a false dilemma here. You seem to reading your own vehemence into Pickering's words.<br /><br />-JesseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-84318065186590548582013-02-23T08:16:15.131-06:002013-02-23T08:16:15.131-06:00I didn't say it wasn't a matter of theolog...I didn't say it wasn't a matter of theology. I said theological integrity. One can be wrong and have honestly come to wrong conclusion that falls short of heresy and still have theological integrity. d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-89163681260411949012013-02-23T07:29:29.212-06:002013-02-23T07:29:29.212-06:00David:
It most certainly is a matter of theology....David:<br /><br />It most certainly is a matter of theology. As I noted above,<br /><br />"Either Dr. Pickering was right in his review of MacArthur’s original edition of <i>The Gospel According to Jesus</i> or he was wrong to say that MacArthur was '<i>changing the terms the gospel</i>.' Kevin Bauder is going to have to choose between the two men."<br /><br />Dr. MacArthur defines the core of Lordship theology throughout his teaching, with statements such as, “<i>Salvation [justification] is for those who are willing to forsake everything</i>.” Dr. Pickering says that is wrong, and I agree with Pickering. MacArthur has <i>changed the terms of the gospel</i>. This is black/white, right/wrong. There is no middle ground. Kevin Bauder will either dodge this or give a clear, unvarnished answer, which is what is required or his integrity and character fall into ill repute.<br /><br />From here we'll wait and see that he does with Don's question. I am going be off line most of the rest of the day.<br /><br /><br />LM<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-49326779459232507462013-02-23T07:19:52.235-06:002013-02-23T07:19:52.235-06:00All readers of any further reply from Dr. Bauder s...All readers of any further reply from Dr. Bauder shall construe as they construe. <br /><br />To the MacArthur/Pickering dichotomy you present, it has always seemed to me that much of the differences in articulation of the Lordship issue between thoughtful people (as I know MacArthur to be and assume Pickering to be) comes down to differences in perspective between monergism and synergism. I assume (perhaps wrongly--I'd be interested to know) Dr.Pickering was a synergist; and believe Dr. Bauder is a monergist. <br /><br />So I don't think this is a determiner of theological or personal integrity issue.<br /><br />D.O.d4v34xhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346680257860879900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-13882428459516466602013-02-22T16:39:25.557-06:002013-02-22T16:39:25.557-06:00Well Dave, if Kevin could have dismissed the quest...Well Dave, if Kevin could have dismissed the question as a <i>red herring</i> he would have quickly, but hasn’t because it isn’t.<br /><br />No, I see much at stake for him on that Pickering, MacArthur gospel question by Don. Kevin has not only his presidential predecessor’s theology and integrity on the line, but even more importantly he is gong to have to come down on one side or the other on the Lordship Salvation debate as well. I suspect that these are the main reasons why Kevin has not so much as referred to the Pickering, MacArthur, gospel question over three days now.<br /><br />IMO, the lengthy delay and lengthy answer to the other questions is what prompted Don to reiterate the question and remind Kevin that an answer is awaited.<br /><br />If Kevin tries to dodge, word-smith away or altogether dismiss Don’s question I believe his (Kevin’s) integrity falls into serious and deserved ill repute.<br /><br /><br />LM<br />Lou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com