tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post1219282195307765651..comments2024-02-27T03:28:22.684-06:00Comments on In Defense of the Gospel: “The Simple Natural Meaning of the Terms”Lou Martuneachttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-4400570669400113962007-12-12T15:53:00.000-06:002007-12-12T15:53:00.000-06:00Jon:Is that you in the avatar?If so, you've been e...Jon:<BR/><BR/>Is that you in the avatar?<BR/><BR/>If so, you've been eating your Wheaties!<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-39037342328604388342007-12-12T15:51:00.000-06:002007-12-12T15:51:00.000-06:00Jon:I appreciate your concern.“Hodgism” is a term ...Jon:<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your concern.<BR/><BR/>“<I>Hodgism</I>” is a term I used on that one occasion to encompass the unique interpretations of doctrines such as the Gospel, Repentance and the Judgment Seat of Christ coming from Zane Hodges.<BR/><BR/>Many of his views, to my knowledge, are unique to him and his followers and have seldom been found outside his circle of influence. This is especially true of the “<I>Crossless</I>” gospel. <BR/><BR/>Now, if we are reading it correctly, it appears that Hodges and the GES view forgiveness as not being part of salvation. The appearances of these radical views coming from Hodges seem to have no end in sight.<BR/><BR/>Maybe 50 years from now his views will likely have some sort of designation, maybe “<I>Hodgism</I>.” The mounting number of aberrant doctrinal views coming from Hodges may very well lead to the “Hodgism” label at some point.<BR/><BR/>For now, if for no other reason than to distinguish his interpretation of the Gospel from those in Free Grace circles who utterly reject his theology, we use the “<I>Crossless</I>” gospel.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-4153129443021000552007-12-12T14:49:00.000-06:002007-12-12T14:49:00.000-06:00Lou -You said:“Hodgism” has become the final autho...Lou -<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><BR/>“Hodgism” has become the final authority for faith and practice for the GES and men like Wilkin, Myers and da Rosa.<BR/><BR/>They simply have come to the same point of understanding that you, Dennis and Tom have. Would you prefer to be labeled a "Rokserite" or a "Stegallitarian"?<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/><BR/>JLJon Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16942165441339559170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-46020661382042522702007-12-12T12:26:00.000-06:002007-12-12T12:26:00.000-06:00Jon:I do not understand the purpose of your questi...Jon:<BR/><BR/>I do not understand the purpose of your question<BR/><BR/>How does whether or not I disagree with Stegall and Rokser on some point, have any bearing on the teaching of and being "<I>fair</I>" to the advocates of the "<I>Crossless</I>" gospel?<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-21668591697979632362007-12-12T12:11:00.000-06:002007-12-12T12:11:00.000-06:00Lou -To be fair to "Hodgites" - is there anything ...Lou -<BR/><BR/>To be fair to "Hodgites" - is there anything you disagree with Stegall and Rokser on?<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/><BR/>JLJon Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16942165441339559170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-82472690383177461652007-12-11T12:53:00.000-06:002007-12-11T12:53:00.000-06:00Interested Spectator:OK, you're done!I'll put up w...Interested Spectator:<BR/><BR/>OK, you're done!<BR/><BR/>I'll put up with disagreement, but when you cross the line with fabrications and vitriol, as you did in the comment I just deleted, we are through.<BR/><BR/>Especially when you use an alias.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-39950562434860206082007-12-11T12:11:00.000-06:002007-12-11T12:11:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-73022356643898777842007-12-10T23:30:00.000-06:002007-12-10T23:30:00.000-06:00IS:To document the errors of "Crossless" teaching...IS:<BR/><BR/>To document the errors of "<I>Crossless</I>" teaching footnoting with a link if necessary is appropriate and needed.<BR/><BR/>Unqualified, open-ended linking to sites that promote heretical views of Scripture I do not allow for.<BR/><BR/>It would be tragic for some unsuspecting person to be caught up in the teaching of Hodges because a link from my blog directed him/her to a "<I>Crossless</I>" blog.<BR/><BR/>Thats all.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-12311153912907890732007-12-10T19:03:00.000-06:002007-12-10T19:03:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-35666906699288571752007-12-10T16:55:00.000-06:002007-12-10T16:55:00.000-06:00IS:For policy reasons I did delete your link to th...IS:<BR/><BR/>For policy reasons I did delete your link to the article.<BR/><BR/>I'm not in the habit of linking to sites that teach and promte the doctrinal error of the "<I>Crossless</I>" gospel.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for letting me know anyway.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-28974265448128737732007-12-10T16:50:00.000-06:002007-12-10T16:50:00.000-06:00Hi:I'm sure it will be juicy.LMHi:<BR/><BR/>I'm sure it will be juicy.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-34135778209934016202007-12-10T16:35:00.000-06:002007-12-10T16:35:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-5712436165492730592007-12-10T16:09:00.000-06:002007-12-10T16:09:00.000-06:00Earl:Thanks for stopping by. Glad to hear first l...Earl:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stopping by. Glad to hear first look is a good one.<BR/><BR/>There is much here on both <I>Lordship Salvation</I> and the "<I>Crossless</I>" gospel.<BR/><BR/>Feel free to interact as often as you like.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LouLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-23262945233697572942007-12-10T13:43:00.000-06:002007-12-10T13:43:00.000-06:00Lou,I just discovered your blog. It looks good. I'...Lou,<BR/><BR/>I just discovered your blog. It looks good. I'll be back.<BR/><BR/>EarlEarl Flaskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01584442452339568792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-2528129539375420362007-12-09T22:45:00.000-06:002007-12-09T22:45:00.000-06:00Antonio apologized for his plagiarism of Hodges.Th...Antonio apologized for his plagiarism of Hodges.<BR/><BR/>This only after the admin of the blog where Antonio plagiarized asked for proof from Antonio that he had apologized.<BR/><BR/>This evening JM posted the following to Antonio after he (Antonio) said he had apologized<BR/><BR/><I><B>Antonio, would you please give the link for where you apologized for plagiarizing? Thanks.<BR/>By Jonathan Moorhead, at 12/09/2007 8:59 PM</B></I><BR/><BR/>Here is Antonio's apology. (<I>I did not edit out the vitriol that is commonplace from him</I>.)<BR/><BR/>Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>I cannot find the link right now. I have been looking. I am certain that I did.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless:<BR/><BR/>To ALL:<BR/><BR/>I had used Zane Hodges words in a comment thread on Jonathan Moorhead's blog without giving him credit. To any and all that I may have offended, I apologize. I meant no ill with it, no disrespect to Zane, and my conscious is clear before God that I did not do so malisciously.<BR/><BR/>I have not failed to give credit to those whom it is due since that time.<BR/><BR/>Lou may choose to bring this up at many more junctures in the future and on many more threads if he so chooses. That is his prerogative, and by choice he has brought my name into contempt at every opportunity.<BR/><BR/>It just goes to show that he would rather character assasinate all over the blogosphere than discuss the particulars of his fundamentalist, kitchen sink soteriology.<BR/><BR/>Again, I am sorry that I quoted Zane C. Hodges without crediting him on an informal and non-scholastic blog. I had to learn the hard way that when people just don't like what you are saying, and wish to bring you into disrepute, they will find any ammunition they can to achieve their aims.<BR/><BR/>I own up to my mistake. It will not happen again. (But I get the distinct impression that it will be brought up as long as I post on blogs.)<BR/><BR/>I might even call Zane and apologize to him ;)<BR/><BR/>Antonio<BR/>By Antonio, at 12/09/2007 11:11 PMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-73484837437332214042007-12-09T07:50:00.000-06:002007-12-09T07:50:00.000-06:00BTW,This is how Antonio dismissed his plagiarism o...BTW,<BR/><BR/>This is how Antonio dismissed his plagiarism of Hodges.<BR/><BR/>“<I>That this isn't a classroom is apparant (sic) to me. Zane Hodges puts it into words better than I could in a more precise way. Yet, let us not so hastily detract from the points that have been made</I>.”<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-91615217977489587062007-12-09T07:33:00.000-06:002007-12-09T07:33:00.000-06:00Jon/All:I had another thought of about the influen...Jon/All:<BR/><BR/>I had another thought of about the influence of Hodges on Wilkin, Myers and da Rosa, not to mention the others we have dealt with.<BR/><BR/>With Antonio especially there is this fixation on all things Hodges. In July 2006 <B>Antonio was caught plagiarizing Hodges’</B> <I>The Gospel Under Siege</I>, pp. 43-44. That was the second time he had used plagiarism in his comments.<BR/><BR/>Antonio, of course, felt there was nothing wrong with posting Hodges verbatim as if it was his own (Antonio's) writing. He was <B>totally non-repentant</B> over it. The men who discovered da Rosa's plagiarism asked him, “<I>At accredited institutions, students are expelled for plagiarizing. Do (Would) you accept your unethical behavior from your students when they write</I>?”<BR/><BR/>In his mind he may actually believe it is his own work because he is so thoroughly immersed in Hodges' theology.<BR/><BR/>It is sad to see how da Rosa and so many others in the extreme left of the FG community seem to filter the Scriptures through Hodges' theology books like <I>Absolutely Free</I>, <I>The Gospel Under Siege</I>, (Antonio plagiarized) <I>Harmony With God</I> and other books/journals.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-43499407196394914842007-12-08T20:24:00.000-06:002007-12-08T20:24:00.000-06:00Kevl:Personality and reputation can have a strange...Kevl:<BR/><BR/>Personality and reputation can have a strange attraction.<BR/><BR/>False doctrine can have a strange appeal. Just as with any false teaching or religion the error is mixed in and set along side genuine truth. This way it is not so easily detected.<BR/><BR/>Both LS and the "<I>Crossless</I>" systems are presented along side orthodoxy, familiar terms are used. But when you set out to get clear definitions from the men for the terms they use, one finds that they have twisted the meanings.<BR/><BR/>You, and I'm sure most everyone have noted, how Wilkin, Myers, da Rosa and Johnson are very reluctant to answer any questions. Wilkin and Myers have of course withdrawn entirely.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-2726273861293876182007-12-08T19:48:00.000-06:002007-12-08T19:48:00.000-06:00Wilkin made a point, Hodges disagreed with Wilkin....<I>Wilkin made a point, Hodges disagreed with Wilkin. Wilkin replied, "Then I guess I am going to have to change my position."</I><BR/><BR/>Don't people see this for what it is? As blind as I am.. I just don't get how people can be so easily led astray and by such obviously wave tossed ships... <BR/><BR/>It breaks my heart.. and leaves me in awe.<BR/><BR/>KevKevlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18080346872086553798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-17021546194472032972007-12-07T18:36:00.000-06:002007-12-07T18:36:00.000-06:00Jon:Not long ago I was told by a man who at the co...Jon:<BR/><BR/>Not long ago I was told by a man who at the conference where the following happened.<BR/><BR/>Hodges and Wilkin were doing some kind of open panel discussion. Wilkin made a point, Hodges disagreed with Wilkin. Wilkin replied, "<I>Then I guess I am going to have to change my position</I>."<BR/><BR/>Right on stage Wilkin changed his position because Hodges disagreed with him.<BR/><BR/>That is what I told from a first hand witness. If its wrong then my source was wrong.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-29902136686553749152007-12-07T17:43:00.000-06:002007-12-07T17:43:00.000-06:00Lou,You said: "'Hodgism' has become the final auth...Lou,<BR/><BR/>You said: "'Hodgism' has become the final authority for faith and practice for the GES and men like Wilkin, Myers and da Rosa."<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. The men listed above, and especially Antonio da Rosa, quote Zane Hodges like he's the apostle Paul! For these men, the question is not: "What saith the Scriptures?" (Rom. 4:3; Gal. 4:30), but instead: "What saith Zane Hodges?" <BR/><BR/>This is just one tragedy of the crossless gospel!Jonathan Perreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03701064430800312710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-7088354851748013082007-12-07T07:27:00.000-06:002007-12-07T07:27:00.000-06:00Jon:Thanks for the note.When one look at those ver...Jon:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the note.<BR/><BR/>When one look at those verses they have a clear meaning. The “<I>Crossless</I>” gospel advocates, however, come to those passages with their strange presuppositions on the Gospel in mind. With those “<I>Crossless</I>” presuppositions they proceed to <B>force into, wrench out of, or redefine</B> these verse to suit their new Hodges’ view of the Gospel.<BR/><BR/>Here is da Rosa in his latest article on the Judgment Seat of Christ, “<I>When one finds a consistent line of exposition and interpretation that allows him to <B>take the words of Scripture at their face value</B>, in other words, for what they literally say, without the inclusion of secondary assumptions and gratuitous importation, he has found exegetical gold</I>.”<BR/><BR/>He expresses the very thing “<I>Crossless</I>” advocates should do. Instead, when they come to the Scriptures they abuse and twist what the verses, such as those I cited in the article, “<I>literally say</I>.”<BR/><BR/>“<I><B>Hodgism</B></I>” has become the final authority for faith and practice for the GES and men like Wilkin, Myers and da Rosa.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-18657515561519228282007-12-07T00:45:00.000-06:002007-12-07T00:45:00.000-06:00Lou,I appreciated your list of Bible verses that b...Lou,<BR/><BR/>I appreciated your list of Bible verses that bear on this subject of the refined/crossless gospel. Romans 10:9-10 was especially meaningful, due to it's clarity - when correctly understood - as it clearly commands belief in Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Romans 10:10 clarifies the correct order of 10:9. One cannot confess with his mouth what he has not first believed in his heart! Paul's command to believe in Jesus' resurrection from the dead in Romans 10:9 is consistent with Jesus' command of the same in John 20:26-29!Jonathan Perreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03701064430800312710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-29986370064694684942007-12-06T15:52:00.000-06:002007-12-06T15:52:00.000-06:00Hi Kevl:You wrote, “This might seem silly, but som...Hi Kevl:<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “<I>This might seem silly, but someone not familiar with the subject and the usual suspects (*smile*) might confuse ‘da Rosa’ with our Sister Rose in a quick reading</I>.”<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I get it. This week Rose went on record rejecting Antonio’s position that the lost can be saved apart from belief in the cross and resurrection of Christ.<BR/><BR/>The confusion and appearance of agreement with “<I>Crossless</I>” theology by Rose comes in because she is a staunch proponent of tolerance for “<I>Crossless</I>” theology, and its advocates. <BR/><BR/>In private correspondence some people in the debate (and lurkers) have noted she is especially defensive when it comes to criticism of Antonio's theology.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30991724.post-58922218538128529252007-12-06T15:40:00.000-06:002007-12-06T15:40:00.000-06:00Hi Glenn:Good to have you back for a visit.You wro...Hi Glenn:<BR/><BR/>Good to have you back for a visit.<BR/><BR/>You wrote, “<I>...Antonio has often said that a person only needs to believe on the name of Jesus in order to be saved. In this day and age a name does not mean what it did two millennia ago</I>.”<BR/><BR/>He has frequently repeated that statement. <BR/><BR/>His name “Jesus” means less-and-less to more-and-more people in this day and age. Secular Humanism and various other assaults on Bible Christianity have seen to that.<BR/><BR/>That aside, according to Antonio and “<I>Crossless</I>” advocates, the lost do not have to understand or believe in who Jesus is/was and what He did to provide salvation.<BR/><BR/>This is getting to be redundant, but it must be repeated. Antonio allows for any lost man to openly reject and deny His deity and finished work on the cross and still Antonio insists that man can be born again.<BR/><BR/>Many people in these discussions do not realize that Antonio’s position is actually the most extreme among the advocates of the “<I>Crossless</I>” gospel. There are men in the “<I>Crossless</I>” camp that absolutely maintain the stance that a lost man cannot be born again apart from believing in the deity of Christ. Jon Lee, who has posted here, is one of these.<BR/><BR/>A participant in the FGA panel discussion, Brother Ken Wilson, is another. While Wilson was of the opinion a lost man does not have to believe in the finished work of Christ for salvation, he was adamant that the lost must believe in His deity.<BR/><BR/>So, there is a rift in the “<I>Crossless</I>” camp. We’ll see if it ever boils over among them. IMO, men who maintain the Deity as necessity for salvation position should be appalled at Hodges, Wilkin Myers and da Rosa’s dismissal of this vital truth.<BR/><BR/><BR/>LMLou Martuneachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08683967904677815711noreply@blogger.com